Folks, sit back in your chair and get ready to have your socks
blown off. As I sit here I have tears in my eyes, because it appears
another great American has been needlessly slaughtered... we'll
have to wait for more word about his demise.
The path to truth was never going to be pretty... it's very sad it has turned even bloodier. I pray for everyone left who speaks out about this, and is looking for truth.
The below information comes from Dave
Hardy and is VERY incredible. DO NOT skim over, reach each
thing very carefully. The aces up Dave's sleeve were well worth
the wait. You will be reading this in the news very soon, but
we are privileged to see it here first. Thank you Dave... truly
Bless you all and stay safe, PLEASE.
~Sharlene Shappart~ Waco Tragedy News
Attorney David T. Hardy writes:
What follows is something I have not been able to reveal prior to this
point. As I mention at the end, I am now released from my promise of
secrecy. Please forgive the length--I think you'll find it worthwhile. This
covers many months of evidence and conversations, which I've had to keep
The House Gov't Reform Committee had retained an infrared expert named
Carlos Ghigliotty, of Laurel, Md. Carlos had been working on the FLIR for
months, and shared a lot of his results with me. I'd pass him data when he
needed it, and he knew he could count on me to keep my mouth shut. Carlos
had done a lot of IR work -- including using it to spot polluters
contaminating Chesapeake Bay, and diagnosing electronic errors (a bad
connection or phase mismatch heats up). He loved his work, and was proud of
some electronic inventions which enabled him to link together visual and IR
imaging into a single image. He got into some courtroom work--chiefly
determining if FLIR used to justify a drug search warrant was properly used
or not. He had two principles: (1) if retained, he would tell the absolute
truth as to everything and (2) he would never accept a second retainer from
a drug suspect. No matter how egregious the misuse a second time around, he
wasn't interested in being of assistance to a man who violated the law a
He'd just had a case where an attorney tried to grill him... but the
more questions the guy asked, the deeper he got into the hole, until the
courtroom security guards were all wandering in and sitting in the back,
amusing themselves at the attorney's expense. Carlos knew his stuff, and he
laid it right on the line.
I talked with Carlos over the phone a lot, and visited him in his lab a
couple of times. I now forget the first one, but the second visit was the
day Mike McNulty previewed his latest film in DC.
Thru the committee, Carlos was able to obtain a much better quality tape
than any anyone else had. He discovered that, when FBI gave out "first
generation copies," it was in fact giving out copies of a digitized
"master," not of the original analog tape. Digitization compresses the
image, and loses some of its quality. He demanded and got, thru the
Committee, a copy of the original tape, on Super VHS, with some other
tweakings to make it the most perfect copy possible. He said they brought
out the envelope with the original--it had about twenty chain-of-custody
signatures on it. He figured that his copy was as close to identical to the
original tape as it was possible to have--whereas the ones everyone else
has been using are a few generations down.
Then he imported the video into his lab equipment (which I've
seen--VERY impressive--four big monitors, Super VHS decks, two computers
with more speed, RAM, and hard drive than I ever thought possible.). He was
thorough, refusing to make a finding until he had it pinned down from every
angle. In one case, he told me last month, he'd finally managed to link by
time and location an image of a person shouldering a weapon, shown on the
regular media videotapes made from the media locations, with a flash on the
He found nearly 200 suspected gunshots, and had done the work
necessary to verify that many of these were genuine. Understand that his
idea of "verify" wasn't just to see the image. He wanted to find the
shooters, as well, and to plot their movement from one flash location to
another. And he wanted to correlate the FLIR images to every possible
ordinary video image, to see if he could link up what the media filmed from
the side with what the FLIR registered from overhead. He was really hot on
getting some footage shot by DPS from a site behind the building, so that
he could tie that in as well. This man was thorough--no rushing to judgment
on anything. His normal standard was to study everything from every
possible angle or potential critique, until he could lay all the cards on
the table, be absolutely clear, and defend his conclusions against any
criticism. And he knew this was no normal case... as he once said, the Waco
FLIR was probably going to be the next Zapuder film, and he wasn't going to
say something that he couldn't prove against any criticism.
On the side (and I have no idea why he was analyzing this)
he said it
had been determined that almost the entire Waco operation, not only 2/28
but the siege, had been improperly financed from money that law enforcement
was supposed to use only in the war on drugs. He said there was plenty of
documentation here, showing flow of money. In the 2/28 videotape, the ATF
agents are all trying on new uniforms, new equipment -- everything down to
the computers in the media area of the raid HQ were bought out of money
supposed to be used only in drug enforcement. He said that much or all of
the siege had been financed the same way. There were written standards in
the gov't for when the drug enforcement money could be used, and these
could be shown to have been violated in black and white terms. A
considerable amount of money had been, well, embezzled, to support the
Carlos also told me, last month, that he'd seen FLIRs from nights before
4/19, and that it was apparent that the FLIR aircraft was being used to
monitor the Davidians' water supply. The water was stored in those big
plastic tanks at the rear of the building, and the coolness of the water
inside showed up as a darker area. It was apparent that the water supply
was shrinking, and by 4/19 was almost gone. He had heard the aircraft crew
talking about it, and noting that the level was going down. So,
essentially, they knew that thirst would force an end to the siege within a
few days of 4/19.
While I was in his lab, he showed me some footage where it
beyond any doubt, that a man was moving in the wreckage of the gym. The guy
gets up from behind one pile of cover and races to another. In between, you
see a very long flash that exists only for an instant -- much longer in
terms of physical length than could be attributed to a gunshot. He said
that was a bullet imaged in flight--he'd imaged them before, while flying
past shooting ranges. (Shooters know that a bullet after firing is too hot
to pick up in the hand, a product of being rammed down a barrel ahead of
burning powder, and then of air resistance as it travels at Mach 2-3 thru
the air. I'd never suspected that one would show up on IR.). These scenes I
saw with my own eyes, on his equipment--it was clear there was a person
He'd done a preliminary report for the House committee before they had
a falling out--he wanted to do a really throrough job, which he said would
take months, and they wanted him to do a final report quickly. (He also
mentioned that they'd been slow in payment, and he'd needed their check to
buy some more equipment that he wanted to devote to the final analysis.).
He said that someone (I think he said Rep. Burton himself) had called and
threatened that they'd sue him for what he'd already been paid, and he
decided he wouldn't take that guff from anyone. He would finalize his
report, brief everyone, and that would be it.
The prelim report I have here (he wanted to keep it secret
for the time
being, and faxed me a copy with instructions to keep my mouth shut. As will
be set out below, I think I have been released from that promise.). To
11:24:16 to 36: shots from two locations into hole made by
CEV in gym.
11:24:50 to 11:25:04 apparent return fire from inside of gym.
11:26:13 to 11:26:27 additional return fire. If the dark objects
behind the tank are indeed shooters, this may have pinned them down.
Following this, the tank backs over the dark spots.
11:26:39 "One of the two unknown subjects is clearly visible exiting
out of the hole in the front wall of the gym which the tank previously
made. The unknown subject turns to the right into the courtyard."
11:28:04 to 11:28:14: gunfire from this person's approximate position,
directed toward building.
11:28:18 to 11:28:22: return fire from structure.
11:30:09 to 11:30:15: gunfire from shooter in courtyard, toward building.
11:33:51: gunfire between gym wall and swimming pool, into the
structure. The infrared signature of these shots differs from those seen
earlier in courtyard area.
11:34:32: one shot at unknown subject that is running and hiding
between gym and swimming pool. [This may be the one he showed me]
11:38:34: unknown subject is seen hiding in front of tank.
11:43:36 to 11:59:03: gunshots from 2d story of building directed at
tank (I believe he is here referring to the tank penetrating the front).
12:03:59: An unknown subject appears next to the tank in rear of structure.
12:07:42: fire is visible in 2nd story tower.
12:08:12: Unknown subject comes out of tank and shows up at 12:08:51
shooting at another unknown subject that appears at 12:08:34.
12:08:31 to 12:08:32: "A cluster of thermal anomalies appears at the
corner of the gym."
12:08:34 and 12:08:44: unknown subject runs from the area where the
thermal anomalies were seen, hops over rubble, and hides in gym.
12:08:51: automatic gunfire into area where previous subject hides.
12:10:41 to 12:11:15 numerous rounds shot from center of courtyard,
directed at structure.
Past this point, nothing of importance since fire overloads FLIR, but
visible media and the soundtrack of FLIR indicates that gunfire did
He notes that events at 11:24:31, 11:24:35 and 11:28:14 may
involved more than one shot.
He notes that a pattern was apparent: Davidian return fire only
occurred following penetration of the building by an armored vehicle.
"Total number of events that occurred between 10:41:57 and 12:16:13: 198."
He told me, in late March, that he'd met with both the majority
the minority of the committee (after they sorta broke off relations) and
shown them his results. Each briefing was in detail and consumed several
hours. I forget the exact numbers, but somewhere around 3-8 people, mostly
attorneys for the committee, were present at each briefing. He was still
working on a final report when last I spoke with him. He was rather miffed
that they had not given him time to analyze everything, and said he
intended to insert a final section outlining all the things he had wanted
to analyze when relations were broken off. He added that the minority staff
had been rather surprised to see the data, since apparently the majority
had been informing them only of a minimal amount of his results. Some of
them suggested that maybe both the Demos and Republicans could hire him on
jointly, to do a really thorough piece of work. He was rather flattered at
the idea (if Carlos had any politics, I never heard of it) altho he said he
was suffering from "Waco fatigue" and wanted to get back to his regular
work, or even a long overdue vacation.
My memory may be imperfect here, but as I recall he talked about the
scene at the rear, where there is that big flash near the "dog house." His
The flash appeared to be multiple flash-bangs. It was possible they
were actually thrown by a Davidian, altho not certain. But right after it,
a person can be see running back into the building.
A hatch opens on the CEV. When it opens, the cooler, darker interior
of the vehicle is visible. A person exits the hatch. This is not totally
clear, and some people agreed with his interpretation and others did not.
But the person who dismounts then fires, the shots going toward the last
location where the suspected Davidian is seen. He added that the Committee
knew exactly who was under that hatch, so they could actually name the guy
who did it.
He could afterward track at least two suspected FBI shooters. He could
spot their location--one stayed in the gym wreckage, and the other moved
out into the courtyard, where he shoots.
Ian Goddard had spotted what he thought was a structure, alongside the
gym, and from which some shots come. I checked a color photo, and the
structure is actually a big chunk of gym wall that the tank has knocked
over and falls outward into the courtyard. I mentioned that to Carlos, and
Carlos said it was more complex than that. The shooter had been in the
courtyard to begin with, and the tank knocked the wall segment atop him. If
there hadn't been other wreckage to catch it and hold it up a bit, he would
have been squashed. I believe Carlos said that the gunshot images from that
location were a little distorted, probably because the wall segment was
cutting off part of the image at times.
Carlos also found indications that shots were being fired into the
underground storm shelter after the fire began. On one of the regular media
videotapes, you could see a long, bright flash going down into the pit,
from in front of one of the armored vehicles. He said it was no sunlight
flash, he'd imaged it on three different media tapes from slightly
different angles. His best assessment was that it was the fuse on a
pyrotechnic round. I saw this tape, also, with my own eyes. His view was
that they were gassing the underground vault to pin Davidians in place
during the fire.
Carlos was about as credible as they come. He'd done work for the FBI
in the past, in fact, and often worked with gov't agencies. He had no
particular ax to grind with regard to Waco: he once told me "the only
thing that makes me mad about this is when I can see government officials
making statements, and know for an absolute fact that they are lying."
He also told me that that the House Gov't Reform Committee had even
more data than he did, that he knew only part of it and couldn't talk about
it, but that it was really shocking.
He said that the big problem the Committee seemed to see was the
question of how they could get the information out, while at the same time
preventing another Oklahoma City type reprisal--it was that shocking. This
conversation came shortly after Carlos' name had first been mentioned in
the press, and the Committee rather played down his statements, saying they
were based on visual video rather than FLIR (which was true only in small
part). I asked about that--was the Committee getting cold feet over his
evidence, or just playing their cards close to the chest. He said it was
the latter -- they just hadn't figured out how to let the info out yet. (He
was then meeting with the majority on a weekly basis, to brief them on his
I talked to him after the recreation, and his assessment was
was pure junk -- the aircraft wasn't even at the right altitude, they
didn't have the right procedures to verify that the sensor was functioning
comparable to the one of 4/19, etc. The best thing that could be done with
any resulting tape (and this is BEFORE the results were known) was to drop
it in the wastecan. Whether it showed gunshots or did not, it'd be useless
for proving anything, whether for the Davidians or the FBI.
I remember talking to him outside his office, after the first
standing there in the parking lot after dark. He'd mentioned that the guy
with Infraspection Institute, who had analyzed the FLIR for 60 Minutes back
in '95 or '96, and found FBI gunshots and shooters on it, had been
terrified. In fact, he'd sent copies of the tape to Carlos and to several
others in the IR field, with notes saying "If anything happens to me,
you'll know why." (The same guy later called me, said he didn't want his
name used, that "there are too many people already in their graves over
this." I wrote him off as him being rather nervous.).
I asked Carlos, there in the parking lot, if he'd ever been fearful. He
said only for a while, between the time he made his findings and the time
he reported them to the Committee. Then he had been worried, because he was
looking at clear evidence that would nail a LOT of FBI agents on perjury,
and perhaps much worse. But once he told others of his results, he figured
the cat was out of the bag.
This is a rather long post, but there is a reason. It's in
memorial for a feisty and totally honest guy I came to like a good deal.
On April 19 of this year, from the hotel room in Waco, I called Carlos
to report a minor discovery (the roof of the storm shelter, which glows
bright white on the FLIR, wasn't just plywood--it was covered in black
asphalt, which explained why it got so hot in the sun.). I got his
answering machine, but when it came time to leave a message, the tape just
said "tape finished. Thank you for calling." I thought he'd run out of
tape--never happened before, but who knows? I tried again from time to time
-- same result. I sent email asking him to call. Well, maybe he was out of
town. Early today I tried again, and this time nothing picked up, the phone
just rang off the hook.
Then this afternoon I received a call. Carlos was found dead in his
apartment. Perhaps the guy with Infraspection was right.
I've got a call in to Laurel PD to tell them what little I know.... my
phone records show calls to him up thru 3/30, after that he must have
called me but there's no record, and I was unable to reach him on 4/19 and
Too damn bad. He was a good man, and I'd come rather to like him. He
was rigorously honest -- his own man, and no one elses'.
Since the Committee has his results (and has had information on it for
months now), I guess we'll soon know how serious they are about
Public Relations Officer Jim Collins 350 Municipal Square Laurel, MD 20707 Phone: 301-498-0092
This is all I have for now... there should be a full story from Dallas Morning News and The Washington Post in a few hours.
By Cindy Loose
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, April 29, 2000; Page Page B03
Laurel PD told me last night when I initially called, the office
building was also his living quarters, and so does this newspaper.
Please take note: Dave Hardy writes "608 Washington Blvd. is his *office*, on the third floor of an office building. I've been there, twice. It's only a two room office,
mostly desks and electronics, with no living quarters." ~Sharlene Shappart~ Waco Tragedy News
Subj: Further info on FLIR
Date: 04/29/2000 1:08:45 PM US Mountain Standard Time
In August, 1999, Dan Gifford asked me to send an affidavit
conversation I'd had back in 1997. I found it on my word processor, and it
is set out below.
Background: after the gunshots on the FLIR were revealed by Gordon Novel
(a really wild character, BTW), and confirmed by Dr. Allard, Gordon took
the tape to Sixty Minutes. [As I recall, he then had a grudge against Mike
McNulty, and figured to break the story on his own.]. Sixty Minutes sent
the tape out for a second opinion, to a firm called Infraspection, in
Vermont, I seem to remember. Infraspection confirmed that they were
gunshots, and that they could see people moving around as well. (Sixty
Minutes killed the story nonetheless.).
Afterward, Infraspection refused to publicly confirm its findings.
Apparently it got word that its letters making the findings, then refusing
to confirm them because of potential negative consequences to the firm (I
think those were its words), were going to be used in the original "Waco:
The Rules of Engagement." For some reason -- I think they couldn't find
phone no's for McNulty or Gifford -- they called me. The guy who called was
so nervous you could hear it in his voice, and said something to the effect
that "there are too many people in their grave already over this." (I
believe he was referring to Wm. Colby, whom Gordon said had given him the
FLIR gunshot info, and who had been found dead just before this
Incidentally, Carlos mentioned to me in one of our last conversations
that the fellow had been so frightened that he made a stack of copies of
the FLIR and mailed them to a bunch of fellow analysts, including Carlos,
with notes reading to the effect of "If anything happens to me, you'll know
why." Carlos regarded this with detachment or even a bit of amusement.
Anyway, here's the affidavit:
David T. Hardy, being first duly sworn, deposes and says:
1. My name is David T. Hardy. I am an attorney practicing law
2, In 1997, I was involved in a Freedom of Information Act
relating to the incident at Waco. I was accordingly in touch with Dan
Gifford, who was working on a documentary on the subject, and with several
other persons including an investigator named Gordon Novel. I knew that the
documentary included infrared ["FLIR"] footage, and that the footage had
been analysed by an Infraspection Institute, which had been retained by a
3. In early 1997, I was called by a Craig Kelch, of Infraspection
Institute. My independent recollection is that Mr. Kelch had been trying to
contract Dan Gifford in connection with the documentary, said that he had
not been able to contract him, and had in some manner gotten my name and
number. I recall that his tone was very anxious, and that he was quite
upset that his business was going to be mentioned in the documentary. I
recall he said something to the effect that he did not want his company
name used, and also he did not want to be involved, for some reason
relating to personal fear.
3. I have located my phone log of the conversation. My notes
indicate it took place between February 28 and March 3, 1999. My notes are
as follows [indecipherable words are bracketed, as are completions of
Cindy Bathsky--CBS 60 min. & Novel
Wanted no part of this -- no trust [them or this]--
Wash. Post -- my co[mpany] name --5th Estate
Need contact me + Gifford
If corporate name--gonna have problem
No want to be involved in the [the or this] [ ]
Too many end in grave
Subj: More info--again, feel free to post
Date: 04/29/2000 1:18:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time
I recall one of the last areas on which Carlos was working.
probably be in early April. My long distance shows several calls to him in
March, ending March 30, none after until 4/19, but I believe he called me
several times after my last call to him.
I'd been reviewing the tapes for the soundtrack after the fire breaks
out, which would mean sometime after 12:35 -- probably around 12:39 or
shortly after 1:00. I found a strange flash (rounder and longer in duration
than the gunshot flashes) to the right of the pit area as the camera looks
at it (left of pit if you are looking from front). I'd emailed him about
Carlos called back to say that one was indeed interesting, but while
looking for it he had found another (I believe in the same pit region).
That one was critical, he said, because he'd been able to link it to one of
the conventional, media-made videotapes (shot by telephoto lens from a
distance). He could now link, by time and place, a FLIR flash and a
conventional image of an agent shouldering a weapon and going into a
shooting stance. At that point, the question of whether the FLIR flashes
were gunshots was pretty much over.
He had once showed me a conventional media video showing an agent
taking such a stance, but I don't know if it's the same image he was
referencing here. It's a blurry video that shows the pit area, taken at a
very shallow angle, so bushes and tanks block a lot of the view. I'd seen
it before, but only Carlos had the eye to spot what you needed to see. You
had to look at the indistinct human figures on the far side of the tanks.
One of them takes a shooting stance (you couldn't see the weapon being
shouldered, but could see the stance--it was consistent with firing at a
downward angle, which made sense if it was the edge of the pit). He was
generally facing away from you. Then his head turned toward you... you
couldn't see the face as such, but the head area went from dark to
flesh-colored. The agent apparently realizes that he is within line of
sight of the media cameras, and suddenly ducks down and lunges in front of
one of the parked tanks.
I hope you realize how important this recent news is to this entire case, and how important it is to not let the death of Carlos slide by unnoticed. This man was very scared his life might be taken, and indeed this is what has happened. We have information here that even the press has not dared report on yet, not seriously. Pass this information FAR and WIDE. Take firm hold of our ability to unsilence our government and expose the evil that lurks underneath. If we lift enough rocks, perhaps a vast majority will come crawling out.
>Police Probe Death of Waco Expert
>.c The Associated Press
> WASHINGTON (AP) - Police said Saturday they are investigating the death of
>an expert hired by a congressional committee who alleged last October that
>shots were fired in the Waco siege.
>Mark Corallo, a spokesman for the congressional committee
chaired by Rep. Dan
>Burton, R-Ind., said Saturday that police found the business card of a
>committee investigator in Ghigliotty's office. Corallo said Ghigliotty's work
>for the committee ended some time ago.
Dave Hardy writes:
The BS quota is rising by the minute. I rather liked Carlos, and feel
obliged to defend his status.
(1) Carlos was working hand-in-hand with the committee well
-- that is, up to a month before his death. He had a falling out with them
and quit (was not fired, as they say -- of course, I have to admit I was
only hearing his side of it) sometime around March 13. The conflict wasn't
over the quality of his work -- rather, they wanted a fast report, and he
was unwilling to stake his reputation on it until he'd thoroughly studied
He faxed me his preliminary report to them on March 18, and I believe
that was within a short time of its actual submission. I think they had
just had the falling out.
In my phone log I have two calls from him, sometime between 3/18 and
3/23 (I often overlook writing in the new day).
Notes on first call: Kevin Binger, chief of staff to Burton,
report rewritten his way. Carlos needed stuff from locker (presumably
Rangers' evidence locker or locker in custody of court) and committee
refused to send him (Carlos) down there.
Notes on second call:
Something about finished tape 4 in January. Shots from side of tank.
He had been showing the FLIR of a tank hatch opening and a guy coming
out of the CEV to the Demo staff members; they agreed that the hatch opened
but some didn't agree they could see the person. They knew by name the
person under that hatch. Guy dismounts and shoots at a Davidian. Something
about audio track at another point says tank is in pursuit of an
[Word unclear, begins with C, likely "Congress"] only wanted his anomaly
list [i.e., his list of thermal anomalies, rather than a study of each].
Over a hundred of those. Something about four gunshots. He suggested Demos
might pay for analysis of the rest. Demos unaware. [As I recall, he said
the minority staff had been kept apprised only of the major developments,
and were surprised to learn of all the details.]
I just am getting a little bent at these claims. Carlos is
submitting preliminary reports around March 13, still briefing their
staffers around March 23, and is still working on the project and preparing
a polished report the last I heard from him, probably in early April. He
dies, and they claim claim his work for them "ended sometime ago." I've
also heard rumors that the Committee is claiming they fired him, which sure
wasn't the way I heard it -- he quit, and it was over time pressure and his
wanting to do a thorough job rather than a fast one, and not over any
question of quality.
I'd placed high hopes on the Congressional inquiry, but my
is rapidly declining. When the Post first quoted Carlos, the committee had
played down his results, saying that they were based on conventional video
rather than FLIR (false--it was FLIR, confirmed by conventional video). I
asked him about that, and he said that the Committee wasn't backing off,
not at all. It was just that the information so far uncovered was so
impressive that they had a problem of how to let it out without inspiring a
dangerous backlash -- the lunatic fringe might decide that more Okl. City
bombings were appropriate. They were fully informed of the results -- he
was briefing them about once a week -- but would let things into the open
once they'd resolved that problem.
I'm beginning to wonder if Carlos wasn't a bit too trusting