http://Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/Burial/page/b_kce.html

===
Doyle's Efforts to "Be Somebody"

Before Clive came to Mt. Carmel, he was a currency printer for the
Australian government. He was the Mt. Carmel printer under Ben, and
then Lois, Roden. It was an important position because Ben and Lois
Roden relied heavily on mailings to get the word out and to raise
funds. Clive apparently liked being important.

Old time Davidian Bob Kendrick told me that David did not trust Clive
because Clive was always seeking to "be somebody." This was confirmed
by another old-timer, Doug Mitchell. Then Tom Cook, the man who runs
the Mt. Carmel website for Clive Doyle and acts as Clive's PR point
man, told me that I should not trust Clive. Tom told me Clive had
gone to Lois Roden and asked if he could print a tract that he had
written. Lois said no, but that Clive defied her and printed it and
sent it out anyway, using the Davidian mailing list --

CV:
One moment. When did Tom Cook come on the Davidian scene?

X98:
Tom Cook came onto the scene in 1993 when he put up bail for Jesse
Amen. Jesse Amen was the man who was arrested after he mysteriously
got through the FBI cordon during the siege, camped out with the
Davidians, and conveniently left just before the fire only to be
arrested by the FBI. Many believe Jesse was an FBI informant.

CV:
So how does Tom Cook know about the Roden days?

X98:
Tom is Clive's hairdresser and confidant. Clive must have told him
about the incident. When Tom spilled the beans to me, he told me not
to let Clive know he had told me.

Koresh vs. Doyle on Homosexuality

By the way, Tom admits that he is a practicing homosexual and male
prostitute, but says that he is trying to overcome his "sickness."
I've seen him bringing his male lovers into the Mt. Carmel Center. I
am sympathetic to sinners who repent, but if you are a practicing
homosexual that means you have not repented. That's another instance
of Clive breaking with David. David Koresh would never have
appointed a practicing homosexual to a position of trust in the
Davidian community. It sends the wrong message about keeping God's
commandments.

Strange to say: Once I helped Clive move his house. We were packing
his personal effects, and I saw his underwear. Clive wears bikini
briefs, silky little things, with flowers and other pretty designs on
them. I said, "Hey Clive, what are you doing wearing girls drawers?"
He said he wore them because he found he liked the way they felt next
to hisZóesh and Clive Doyle was no secret.

Doyle Leaves Koreshians

I mentioned that in 1983 Lois Roden chose David Koresh rather than
her own son, George, to succeed her. George, of course, was very
bitter towards David Koresh and in 1984 forced him out, like I've
said. Clive Doyle told me that during the struggle between George
and David, Clive left David's group for a few years. He said he went
to live in Waco, and did not even attend Sabbaths. Now recall that
Clive has sworn under oath that he believed David Koresh was "God
made flesh." Does it sound to you as if Clive Doyle really believed
that? Here is "God made flesh" caught in a struggle with his enemy
and you leave him.

Clive rejoined the Koreshians after David got control of the Mt.
Carmel Center again. I am not sure exactly when Clive returned to
live there, but I do know that Clive lived at the Mt. Carmel Center
at some point in 1989.

By the way, during the three and a half years I was in Waco, I often
saw Clive Doyle socializing with the old supporters of George Roden.
He'd sit and talk to them for hours.

But I need to go further back in history to put Clive's role in the
group into perspective.

US vs. Victor Houteff: Currency, Conscription, Jews

Victor Houteff founded the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists back in
the 1930s. The government must have seen him as a big threat.
Houteff had a big following all over the world, and a big mailing
list which he used to raise money and proselytize. They had their
own school and hospital. Houteff printed his own Davidian currency
which his followers used in trade among themselves. He was a genuine
pacifist. After Pearl Harbor was bombed, he retained the tradition
of the old Seventh Day Adventists and refused to endorse
conscription. And even worse: Houteff spoke openly about the Jews
and the establishment of the state of Israel.

On January 4, 1947, Victor Houteff gave a sermon at the Mt. Carmel
chapel called "The Hated Jews of Today Are Not the Admired Jews of
Tomorrow." Houteff said:

"In view of the fact that this scripture is now being unfolded, and
also the fact that there is but one people, one nation (the
descendants of the ancient scribes, priests, and Pharisees who
rejected the Lord and who have not even to this day accepted Him,
that are hardly desired anywhere in the world) that is now doing all
she [Judea] can to gather together in Palestine -- in view of all
this, the present-day Jews are that undesired nation. Upon her,
therefore, the Lord's anger is to fall if she continues to deny
Christ. Yes, the universally hated Jew is the only nation that has
been scattered throughout the Gentile world, and is the only one that
is now gathering together in Palestine."

http://www.shepherds-rod.org/TGvol1/1tg22.htm

Houteff went on to say, in effect, that the Jews were being gathered
in one place so God could kill them more conveniently. That's heavy
stuff. Given the control the Jews already had over America at that
time, given Houteff's anti-conscription stand, his issuing of private
currency -- given all these things, you can bet Uncle Sam had an
interest in infiltrating and watching him and his people.

The government actually provided proof of that. The Treasury Report
on Waco contains a copy of early surveillance photos of the Mt.
Carmel Center, taken before the big house we saw on TV in 1993 was
built. You have those pictures in the Museum:

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig18.jpg
http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig19.jpg

No Star of David On Davidian Flag

CV:
OK, but wait a moment. Let's get back to Houteff, Israel, and David
Koresh. Didn't the Davidian flag we saw in 1993 have a Star of David
on the foreground? The Newsweek diagram of May 3, 1993, shows the
Star of David on the Davidian flag.

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig05.jpg

Would not the Star of David suggest Koresh was pro-Israel or even a Zionist?

X98.
I can't help what lies Newsweek publishes. There was no Star of
David on the Davidian flag. What you saw on the Davidian flag that
flew during the siege was a six-winged fiery flying serpent. You can
read about the fiery flying serpent in Isaiah 14:29 and 30:6. The
very first sermon David delivered after Lois Roden identified him as
a prophet of God was on the subject of the fiery flying serpent.

By the way, that's another of David's teachings Clive is suppressing.
He has David's sermon on the fiery flying serpent. I asked him for
years if I could listen to it and he refused to allow me.

Anyway, the six wings of the fiery flying serpent on the Davidian
flag were significant because David believed he was fulfilling the
Fifth Seal so the Sixth Seal could become a reality. One of the
martyrs, the late Julliete Martinez, sewed the flying fiery serpent
flag that flew during the siege. Julliete's mother, Ophelia Santoyo,
told me this. No, there was no Star of David on the Davidian flag.

Who Put The Prop Near The Skull?

CV:
The skull of a two-year old child was found in the concrete room.
The autopsy photo shows the skull with a Star of David near it. The
two-year old victim has never been identified. Did Clive Doyle ever
mention a missing two-year old?

X98:
No. As far as I know, there is no explanation for that skull. Nor
have I ever heard that any of the Davidians wore a Star of David.
The Star of David is a political symbol, not a religious one; it is
not Biblical and has nothing to do with King David of the Old
Testament.

The Star of David was originally the emblem of David al-Roy, a
Messianic 12 Century Khazar Jew who dreamt about the conquest of
Palestine and raised an army for that purpose. You will remember
that Khazaria lay between the Caspian and Black Seas. The Khazars
converted to Judaism in the 8th Century; their descendants, the
European Jews, falsely claim to be the descendants of the ancient
Hebrews. So David al-Roy's Star of David (al-Roy) became the emblem
of the Jewish Crusades, particularly the Zionist holy mission to
conquer Palestine for Judaism. You can read about this history in
Arthur Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe."

The only Israeli among the Davidian dead was Pablo Cohen, and as he
was (allegedly) a follower of David Koresh, he could not have been
"Jewish." With his focus on the Book of Revelations, David was firmly
planted in the New Testament. The Jews reject the New Testament.

In the Museum you raise the possibility that some of the bodies and
body parts found in the concrete room may not belong to Davidians at
all. Maybe the two-year old's skull is one of those. After all, how
likely is it that the Davidians would forget a two-year old child
that belonged to the community?

CV:
If you read other autopsy reports, you will notice detailed records
of the effects found around the remains -- bullets, clothing, shoes,
etc . The autopsy report of Mt. Carmel 51a, however, makes no
mention of the Star of David being found near the skull at the site
of recovery. In fact, the autopsy report clearly says: "The remains
are limited to a skull with articulated mandible."

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/51a/51a_aut.html

If I had to guess, I would say that the Star of David was placed next
to the skull in the mortuary, like a prop, before the photo was
taken. Both the skull and the Star of David may have been signatures
left by the killers, of course. Gangland and ritualistic murderers
often leave such signatures.

X98:
Well, I can assure you David Koresh was no Zionist or lover of
Israel. As a Muslim, that was one of the first things I checked out
when I arrived. I would have been out the door in a hurry if David
was a Zionist. Clive told me David had traveled to Israel, yes, but
he hated it and thought it was "filthy." I heard Clive quote David
many times, talking about Israel, calling it "filthy."

Doyle's Reaction to the Autopsy Photos

But now you have brought up the subject of the autopsy photos. At
one point during my 1996-2000 stay in Waco, I moved into the rental
farm house in Mexia Road, the one Clive used to live in. For a while
Clive's phone remained connected. In August, 1999, a man called my
house wanting to speak to Clive. The Danforth investigation was in
the news then, and the fellow told me he was interested in making
money on the deal -- everyone else was, he said. The man's name was
Don Petty and he appears in "Waco: The Rules of Engagement."

Petty told me he had some photographs he wanted to sell to the "right
person," and he thought Clive might be that person. I told Clive the
coroners' photographer wanted to meet with him. Clive agreed, and we
both went up to Dallas to see him.

Clive and I spent four to five hours with Petty. We met in the
office of an attorney who was helping him sell the photos. There was
a large table in the office. The autopsy photographs were stored in
a series of boxes, approximately 2 feet by 2 feet, some on top of the
table, some on the floor.

Clive and I saw thousands of photos, including the photo of Shari,
Clive's daughter. The attitude of the photographer was nonchalant,
and even jovial, despite the horrific nature of the material. He
said that he had shown the photos to his friends and knew they would
be worth something some day. Throughout, Clive did not react.

Ghastly Stunt Of Autopsy Photographer

Then Petty showed us a single sheet on which there were four photos.
Three photos showed human remains, burnt to a crisp. The fourth
photo showed a table setting, with a fork, a knife, and a plate. On
the plate was some burnt meat and potatoes. The implication was that
the burnt meat was Davidian remains served up as a meal.

"What is this," I demanded. Petty said the table setting and meal
was set up as a joke between him and some of the guys. I jumped up
on my feet and threw the picture across the table at him. I was
furious about it. "This is funny? This is what you call a joke?" I
felt like hitting him but did not. Clive was deadpan throughout.
His face revealed no emotion.

CV:
Clive said nothing?

X98:
That's right. On the way home I continued to express my outrage, and
then Clive said he was sorry he did not react to the photo when he
saw it. What kind of a person would make a joke like that to rub it
in a father's face? OK, I don't know if Petty was the same person
who put the Star of David prop next to the anonymous little skull,
but you can see from this story the dregs that worked for the Tarrant
County Medical Examiner's office.

Doyle's Interest In Lists

CV:
Now lets get back to Victor Houteff ...

X98:
OK. Victor Houteff died in 1955, leaving behind his widow Florence.
Ben and Lois Roden were among the flock at that time. In 1959 a
major prophecy of Florence's failed. In 1962 she sold off much of
the property and left with the money. A few months later, Clive
Doyle arrived. Ben Roden was now in charge of the Mt. Carmel Center.
Roden appointed Clive as the official Mt. Carmel printer -- a natural
enough move, considering Clive's background as currency printer for
Australia.

Clive printed the Center's religious tracts and of course had open
access to the Davidian mailing list. Any government agent would give
his eye teeth for that information. Spooks are always trying to find
out who is talking to who. By the way, I noticed in my almost four
years with Clive: He is an obsessive keeper of lists. He keeps a
list of those who visit the Mt. Carmel Center. He keeps lists of
people who contribute money ...

David Koresh and Clive Doyle's Daughters

CV:
You have told us how David felt about Clive. But what of Clive's
regard for David?

X98:
Old time Davidian Doug Mitchell told me Clive hated David Koresh.
Being a newcomer at the time, I told Doug that his statement was
ridiculous. Then Doug told me this story: In 1989 David, already
married to Rachel, announced to a gathering of Branch Davidians that
he intended to take additional wives -- and that Clive Doyle's
14-year old daughter, Karen, was his first choice. Doug was there
and witnessed it. Apparently David had not given Clive any prior
notice of his intention. "You should have seen Clive's face. Clive
hated David Koresh."

CV:
How much weight do you place in what Doug Mitchell has to say about
Clive Doyle? I understand that Doug Mitchell is one of the claimants
to the Mt. Carmel property and is Clive Doyle's opponent.

X98:
According to the by-laws of the Branch Davidians, the owner of the
property is the Branch Davidian prophet. Doug Mitchell claims to be
a prophet. Clive Doyle makes no claim to being a prophet, and no
Branch Davidian survivor accepts Clive as a prophet. So Doug
Mitchell does not gain anything by inventing stories about Clive.
Clive is already disqualified from ownership by the Branch Davidian
by laws.

CV:
On the other hand, Rita Riddle lived in the Mt. Carmel Center with
her 17-year old daughter Misty Ferguson. Rita told Waco researcher
Ken Fawcett that David Koresh did not sleep with other women, that he
was not sleeping with her or Misty. Sandy Connizzo, the mother of
Mike Schroeder, believes her grandson Bryan is truly the child of her
son Mike (not David Koresh). Stanley Sylvia, husband of Lorraine
Sylvia, filed suit for damages for the death of his one-year old
daughter, Hollywood. So here we have Stanley claiming Lorraine's
child was his, not David Koresh's. These situations would argue for
questioning the stories of Koresh's sexual practices.

X98:
Well, I did not know David Koresh and wasn't living at the Mt. Carmel
Center then, so I can only tell you what I learned during the time I
was Clive's student. Because I have no information to the contrary,
I believe what Doug Mitchell told me is true: that David announced he
was taking other wives and did so.

Why The Squeamishness About Polygamy?

Many people feel revulsion when they hear about David's multiple and
young wives, but if they are Bible believers, I can't see why they
would be shocked. The ancient Hebrews were often polygamous. They
had unorthodox sex lives according to today's standards.

Abraham had many wives. One was his half-sister, Sarah (Gen. 20:12.)
Twice he lent out the beautiful Sarah to other men to save his life.
(Gen. 12: 11-15, Gen. 20:2). His son Isaac also lent his wife out.
(Gen.26:6-9).

All of the 12 Patriarchs had many wives as did many of the prophets.

God commands Hosea to marry a whore! After the priests kill his son
Jezereel (Seed of God) or in other words The Son of God, he is
instructed to take yet another wife of whoredom. The accounts can be
found in Hosea 1:2-3 and 3:1-3.

Isaiah was told to make a child with a woman who was a prophetess,
while the act of "making" the baby was witnessed by Uriah the priest
and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah (Isa. 8:2,3.). And in another
place in the same book Isaiah was told to take off all of his clothes
and walk naked in Jerusalem for three years preaching (Isa 20:2).

Polygamy was practiced by Job 27:15; Lamech, Genesis 4:19; Abraham,
Genesis 16; Esau, Genesis 26:34; 28:9; Jacob, Genesis 29:30; Ashur,
Chronicles 4:5; Gideon, Judges 8:30; Elkanah, 1 Samuel 1:2; David, 1
Samuel 25:39-44; 2 Samuel 3:2-5; 5:13; 1 Chronicles 14:3; Solomon, 1
Kings 11:1-8; Rehoboam, 2 Chronicles 11:18-23; Abijah, 2 Chronicles
13:21; Jehoram, 2 Chronicles 21:14; Joash, 2 Chronicles 24:3; Ahab, 2
Kings 10; Jehoiachin, 2 Kings 24:15; Belshazzar, Daniel 5:2 ...

So why the squeamishness about David Koresh?

CV:
Well, put like that, I can't imagine why.

Why Would Doyle Put Up With It?

X98:
Now I want to give you some more information that might help explain
Clive's reaction to David taking Karen. Clive is illegitimate. His
elderly mom, Edna, must have had a rough, rough time in life. Being
an unmarried mother in Australia 50 - 60 years ago must have been
hard. I totally sympathize with that. Edna is bitter about the
man-woman relationship. In the years I lived among the Davidians, I
heard Edna repeatedly throwing cold water on any interest a Davidian
woman might have expressed in a man. The news that Karen was to be
in the House of David must have gone over like a lead balloon.

I suspect Doyle arrived at the Mt. Carmel Center in 1962 as an
undercover agent and has been undercover agent ever since. I suspect
David Koresh spotted him. That may have been why David treated him
the way he did. David was testing, and inviting Clive to leave or to
repent.

David Koresh took his two daughters, first Karen, then Shari, as
wives. Why would Clive put up with it? When I put the question to
him, "Clive, why did you put up with it?" Clive would say he did so
because he believed David was a prophet. But obviously Clive did
not, and does not, believe in David.

Doyle Was A Stranger At The 1993 Mt. Carmel Center

David Koresh's announcement that he would be taking multiple wives
was followed by the rebuilding of the Mt. Carmel Center. The
individual cottages were taken down and a large house was built with
separate men's and women's quarters. Clive was not even there when
that big house we saw on TV in 1993 was built.

CV:
Do you know when Clive returned to the Mt. Carmel Center -- the house
we saw in 1993?

X98:
I can't give you an exact date, but supposedly he returned to live
there shortly before the February 28 raid. Now I doubt even this.
Clive did not know many of the people who lived and died at the Mt.
Carmel Center between February 28 and April 19. I know this because
when I went down there in 1996, I decided I wanted to write short
biographies on each of the martyrs. So naturally I started asking
Clive about the people. Time and time again Clive said: "I did not
know him/her." One of the Davidians who lived there told me she
scarcely remembered Clive being at the Mt. Carmel Center. "I rarely
saw him, and when he was there, he hardly spoke to anyone," she said.

Question On Clive's Whereabouts During Siege.

Yes, I now wonder if Clive was at Mt. Carmel during the siege. After
years of studying with Clive, listening to every negotiation tape he
had and talking to other Davidians, I began to ask these questions
out loud: Why did I not hear Clive's voice on any of the negotiation
tapes? If Clive was so close to David, why was he not a spokesmen
during the siege?

New Negotiation Tape Appears

Then, suddenly, years after I arrived and months after I publicly
condemned Clive for founding the Cover-up Church on the Sabbath,
Peter Wagstaff dropped by my house and handed me a new negotiation
tape. You might remember that Peter is Clive's Bible student from
England who arrived in Waco a few months after I did. Peter goes
back and forth from England, staying in Waco a few months at a time.
He usually returns each year for the memorial.

This new negotiation tape that Peter dropped off had Clive's voice on
it. The FBI negotiator is talking with Steve Schneider and tells
Steve that Clive's daughter Karen wants to talk to Clive. Steve says
that he has Clive right here. Then the negotiator asks Clive how is
it going, are you being forced to stay? Clive says no, no one is
being forced to stay in here. Then Clive asks: Does my daughter want
to talk to me? The negotiator says no, she just wants to know if
everything is OK.

I've often questioned whether the voices on the tapes were those of
the actual Davidians. Sometimes the voices on the tapes sound
idiotic, as if they are baby-talking the Bible. Other times the
voices give the impression the speaker had real command over the
material. It's no big deal to impersonate a voice. And they would
have access to Clive's voice whenever they wanted to, no problem.

So either Peter or Clive just found this tape kicking around in the
attic, or they had it made up in the lab just for me and any others
who might come along and ask the same common-sense question. Either
way, it was important for them to get that tape to me. I was already
condemning Clive. I wonder why he cared enough to send me that tape?

Doyle Has No Knowledge Of David's Sermons During Siege

Here's another thing that makes me wonder if Clive was actually at
Mt. Carmel during the siege. I asked Clive about David's sermons
during the siege. I thought surely they must be terrific,
considering the revelations David was having about the Sixth Seal.
Talk about "present truth" -- God must have been really talking to
them. But Clive said he couldn't remember any of David's sermons
during the siege. Clive explained this by saying: "David said we'd
forget everything." Funny that Clive did not forget that statement,
but forgot the sermons ...

Livingston Fagan

From the beginning I questioned Clive about Livingston Fagan. David
sent Livingston out on March 23. Ask Clive why David sent Livingston
out, and Clive will tell you he doesn't know. Yet David is on record
saying he sent Livingston out to be his spokesman. There were many
news reports to that effect during the siege and since.

I'd remind Clive what David said about Livingston, but the next time
the subject came up Clive would again say he did not know why David
sent Livingston out. Finally I started handing out Livingston's
writings and Clive stopped me, saying I would cause confusion. So I
was shut down, at least until I got a computer. Then I began to talk
about Livingston Fagan on line. Suddenly things changed at the Mt.
Carmel website. Suddenly they featured Livingston's writings, but
the quotes were taken out of context. They made Livingston look
crazy. They also never included any of Livingston's commentary about
electro-chemical or electro-magnetic streams of consciousness, a
theme David was working on.

But my point is this: It is hard to imagine that Clive was living
inside during the siege and had no clue why David sent Livingston out.

Livingston is very smart -- he has advanced degrees and came from
England with his mother and wife and children to study with David.
Livingston unselfishly left the Mt. Carmel Center to serve David, and
then lost his entire family in the catastrophe. He is still in
prison serving his 40 year prison term. He's not cooperating with
the system as the others are.

Doyle's Concern With His Dog, Not His Daughter

Then there is the story Clive told under oath during the Davidian
civil suits. The Associated Press ran a story about that testimony
on June 29, 2000. [
http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/062900/tex_LD0727.shtml ]

Clive said that, during the fire, he tried to save his pet dog,
Brownie, three times, each time throwing it out of a hole in the
burning building. But he never attempted to rescue his own daughter
Shari. I don't understand that.

Firemen are trained to handle fathers and mothers who try to run into
a burning house to rescue their children. Now here's a father not
running in, but running out, careful to rescue his doggie, but not
worrying about his daughter. "Yeah, my daughter is in the burning
building, but never mind. I'm getting out, and so is my dog." Clive
had plenty of time to find Shari.

Before his March 3 radio address, David told the Davidians that he
wanted them to leave the Mt. Carmel Center. He issued instructions
on how that was to be done. Clive told me that he and Shari decided
they were not going to follow David's instructions. They were afraid
they might be shot if they did. So they planned to hide behind a
barrel until they knew it was safe to come out.

If Clive and Shari were close enough to get together and plan to save
their lives in March, they were close enough to get together and plan
to save their lives in April. On April 19 they were given plenty of
notice that the end was coming. Clive says that Shari stayed with
David that morning, leading us to believe she was devoted to him.
But she showed no such devotion just a few weeks earlier in March,
when she and Clive planned to disobey David and hide behind the
barrel.

Sorry, none of this makes sense. I don't think a father acts like
that. I'd say, considering everything, Clive was not in the fire on
April 19. Nor do I believe his daughter was in the fire.

CV:
It is quite possible of course that Shari -- and her children, if she
had any -- is living in safety under the witness protection program.
That might be part of the deal, Clive's payoff for doing what he is
doing.

Doyle's Strange Story of the Hole

X98:
For sure, Clive is not what he seems and somewhere there is an
explanation. Here's another odd thing. Clive says he got out of the
burning building by going through a hole in the wall of that chapel.
The chapel is where Clive says he last saw his friend, Wayne Martin.
Clive says Wayne walked into the chapel, took his gas mask off, and
sat down. According to Clive, Clive asked Wayne, "What do we do,"
and Wayne said "Just pray."

But Clive did not "just pray." He got out through a hole in the very
structure he was sharing with Wayne. Why didn't he say to Wayne,
"Hey, Wayne, here's a way out." No, the story smells like old fish.
Old Australian fish.

==

Copyright, April 19, 2001 -- May be reproduced for non-commercial purposes
--
Carol A. Valentine
President, Public Action, Inc.

Have you seen the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum?
See what they did to the mothers and children--
http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum