===
Isaiah 13: "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces ..."

CV:
Is there anything else Clive did or said to lead you to believe he is
trying to suppress news of David Koresh's prophecies?

X98:
Shortly after my arrival at the Mt. Carmel Center at the end of 1996,
Clive told me David prophesied that the Davidian children would be
torn to pieces. Clive explained this by citing Isaiah 13:

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce
anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners
thereof out of it." (13:9) and "Their children also shall be dashed
to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their
wives ravished." (13:16)

CV:
But that says the Lord will dash the children to pieces ...

X98:
Yes. I was revolted by the idea that Christ would dash innocent
children to pieces. But Clive explained Babylon's children would be
dashed to pieces because Babylon had done that to God's children. He
quoted Zechariah 14 and other verses. In this fashion, Clive said
David had predicted that God's children -- Branch Davidian children
-- would be dashed to pieces.

At the time Clive first told me of David's prophecy, I did not know
what had happened to the children. I had not read the autopsy
reports.

When I did eventually read the autopsy reports and discover that the
Davidian children's bodies had been "dashed to pieces," I rushed to
Clive; obviously David was right, because the autopsy reports showed
that's what happened. I told him the evidence was right there, on
the Worldwide Web, in the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum:

[Readers, see Dismemberment and Agglutination,
http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/page/d_bg.html

Clive sprang to his feet when I mentioned the Museum. "I am not
prepared, nor will I ever be prepared to speak concerning Carol
Valentine and her website," he said. He said this with such anger --
I had never seen Clive react like this before, to anything. It's
amazing. When Tarrant County autopsy photographer Don Petty showed
Clive autopsy photos and a gag photo of burnt Davidians being served
up on dinner plates, Clive had no reaction to that terrible insult.
But mention Carol Valentine -- who demands that the murderers of his
daughter be prosecuted -- Clive goes ballistic.

Clive insisted no, the children were not torn to pieces. He said the
kids' bodies got messed up because the bunker fell on them. Notice
that Clive used the government's word for the concrete room --
"bunker." Later I looked at the diagram of where the mothers and
children's bodies were found inside that concrete room,

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/map/d_map02.html

and then looked at the aerial picture of the site in the Museum.

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/fig/d_fig02.jpg

With one exception, the mothers and children's bodies were not under
that hole. Besides, as you have pointed out, concrete debris falling
on top of a head would hold the head in place, not remove it. Clive
further boxed himself in -- he said the mothers and children lay down
and hid under blankets. So the heads would be just as protected as
any other part of the body, all horizonal and under the blanket,
right? Why would the heads disappear then? And what of the
fractured body parts throughout the rest of the concrete room and the
rest of the anomalies? You list them in:

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/page/d_id2.html

So the autopsy reports bear witness that David Koresh had indeed
prophesied correctly. The children were torn to pieces. Clive
should have been yelling the news of David's accurate prophecy from
the highest rooftops. Instead, he forwards the government's cover-up
lie.

It's so bad that Clive had a plaque made up for placement on the Mt.
Carmel grounds. The plaque honored the mothers and children who died
when "the bunker collapsed." I don't think the plaque is there
anymore.

Then there is the problem of the date of the death of David Koresh.

Daniel 12:11 And The Problem With Koresh's Date Of Death

CV:
What is the problem with the date of David Koresh's death?

X98:
Daniel 12:11 says this:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and
the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a
thousand and two hundred and ninety days."

David Koresh said he was the "daily sacrifice," and prophesied he
would be killed. If we believe David was the fulfillment of this
scripture, then we must believe that 1290 days after David's death
"the abomination that maketh desolate" was set up.

Count 1290 days from April 19, 1993 -- the day the government says
David died -- and you can't find an "abomination that maketh
desolate" being set up where David was martyred. Nothing happened on
October 30, 1996. We must reach one of two conclusions: Either David
was a false prophet, or that David did not die on April 19.

If Clive and the other so-called Branch Davidians truly believed
David was the prophet, they'd be looking around for "the abomination
that maketh desolate," counting backwards 1290 days, and establishing
a date of death for David in this manner. Or, if they truly believed
the government's date of death, they'd have to conclude David was not
the prophet he claimed to be.

But either way, they are silent. They simply allow the thinking
people among us to conclude David was a false prophet.

At this point the only Abomination That Maketh Desolate that I see
standing in the holy place is the Cover up Church founded on the
Sabbath by Clive Doyle on September 18, 1999.

Koresh's Earthquake Prediction

During the siege David predicted that Waco would be hit by an
earthquake. "I forewarn you the Lake Waco area of Old Mount Carmel
will be terribly shaken. The waters of the lake will be emptied
through the broken damn [sic]. The heavens are calling you to
judgment. Please consider these tokens of great concern." Yet Clive
Doyle and the other Davidians never speak of this prophecy. If they
believed in David, they surely would be telling Waco residents about
the predictions. Or perhaps Clive thinks the government phonied up
the letter and signed his name to it? In that case, he should speak
out. But either way, he says nothing.

Koresh Said His Name Would Be Known Throughout The World

All throughout the delivery of his message, David predicted that his
name would someday be known around the world. Was David right, or
what? Now here is something Clive cannot, and does not, deny!

Doyle's Attitude Towards Mind Control

"What did David say the Abomination that Maketh Desolate was?" I've
asked this question of Clive, Edna, Katherine Mattson, Sheila Martin,
Ophelia Santos, Mary Belle Jones: They all say, as if they were
programmed, that they don't remember, that David said they would
forget everything. Funny thing is that they all use the same words,
and say them robotically. Again, funny how they remembered those
words of David's but not what he said about the Abomination.

If David's job was to interpret symbols, the Abomination that Maketh
Desolate is central. How could it be that none of them remember?

Clive's stance about the mind control used on the Davidians during
the siege is peculiar. I've asked him about the effects of being
blasted with high volume noise and bright lights day and night, the
Tibetan chants, the rabbit squeals and all the other torture. Clive
would reply that he and others would walk around in a daze until they
just fell over from exhaustion and then later wake up again to the
blaring sounds. But then he went on to say talking about the mind
control that went on there would take away from David's message. But
Clive doesn't know what David's message was.

After my stance against the Cover-up Church, Clive said that no mind
control was attempted during the siege, period. And if you mention
that there were government agents inside the Mt. Carmel Center before
the initial raid, Clive's typical response is: "You think everyone is
an agent." No, I don't. How peculiar that Clive found it necessary
to twist what I said to make it sound "paranoid." That's what agents
do, isn't it?

Once I was having a discussion about David's date of death with Clive
Doyle and David Koresh's mother, Bonnie Haldeman. They both became
agitated when I suggested that David could not have died on April 19.
I asked what evidence they had that David died on April 19; they said
they had forensic evidence supplied by the government. "These are the
people who murdered him. Why hold that evidence to be conclusive?" I
asked. I asked Bonnie Halderman if she had any independent forensic
evaluation done on the remains the government claimed were David's,
and she said no.

Leaving Your Christ To Burn

Once when I was talking about David's date of death, Clive told me
that Renos Avraam passed David Koresh as Renos was making his way to
jump out of a window to escape the fire. Think about that. Renos,
who allegedly believed David Koresh was "God made flesh," leaves "God
made flesh" to die in the fire while he jumps out the window. Sorry,
that does not pass the smell test.

All This For Rock n' Roll?

As for David Thibodeau: He says he was not particularly religious and
was just there for the music. Yet he says he entered into a
convenience marriage to Rachel Koresh's sister Michelle, says he
suffered the 51 days of torture, says he suffered through the CS
attack ... what for? Because he liked David Koresh's guitar playing?
Sorry, that does not pass the smell test either.

[For more information on David Thibodeau, see: Fire Survivor's
Story(s): True or False?
http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/page/b_a.html ]

Clive says bringing up the issue of David Koresh's death is not going
to help the survivors. On the contrary. I think it will help the
survivors and the rest of us, for that matter. It would be very
helpful to learn who believes in the teachings of David Koresh, and
who believes in the government.

Doyle Defies Koresh's Teaching On Sabbath

CV:
Let's talk about David's Sabbath teachings and how Clive applies them.

X98:
Clive defied David's teachings by dishonoring the Sabbath. That may
seem like a small point to you, but David Koresh believed that
observation of the Sabbath was a keystone of salvation: The Sabbath
was the day on which men could enter the rest of God and gain
deliverance, according to David.

If you were Satan and you wanted to found the Synagogue of Satan,
what day would you choose to lay the foundation? You'd choose the
Sabbath, and that is exactly what Clive did. He committed an
unbelievable sacrilege by laying the foundations of the new Davidian
chapel -- dedicated to the memory of the martyrs -- on Saturday,
September 18, 1999. Talk about throwing the beliefs of the martyrs
right back in their faces. They died for their beliefs. Clive did
not have to lay the foundation on that day.

[Readers: See article on the Cover-up Church:
http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/doc/x98_rev.html

David Koresh considered the Sabbath so important that he referred to
his major message of faith as "the Sabbath message." Let me quote
you some of David's words:

"We learned that God spoke all things into existence. And by their
word all things came forth unto perfection. Adam and Eve on the
Sabbath day were to behold God's word by the things that were created
... The Sabbath was a spoken creation of God, wasn't it? It was no
less important than any of the other six days of Creation, was it?

"As a matter of fact, we can say that it [the Sabbath] demands more
respect and more honor because it contains within itself the
manifestation of all things .... Sister White [Ellen G. White,
founder of Seventh Day Adventists movement] says that we're gonna
have to teach the Sabbath more fully.

"... God did all the work, didn't he? And God spoke the Sabbath as a
covenant so that we could acknowledge who the creator is. "

"You're out there trying to overcome your sins. Trying to make
yourself perfect and failing every day ... [b]y trying to overcome
your own sins and trying to live in your own power. Not entering
into God's rest or God's revealed plan of salvation. "

["The Seventh Angel Enter into Rest," January 31, 1985. ]

Doyle Not Even a Seventh Day Adventist

And it wasn't just David's teaching that Clive was trashing. Respect
for the Sabbath was of paramount importance to all Seventh Day
Adventists. Ellen G. White, the founder of Seventh Day Adventism,
insisted that the SEVENTH day of the week -- Saturday -- should be
observed as God's day, that we obey God's commandment and do no work
on that day. That is why the movement is called SEVENTH DAY
Adventism.

Despite what Clive says, he never has repented his sin. Instead, he
and the other Davidians tell a variety of lies and offer a variety of
excuses about what happened.

What Happened On September 18, 1999

CV:
I'd like a detailed account of what happened on September 18, 1999.

X98:
On that day I was at home in the morning at the farm house on Old
Mexia Road. I wasn't attending Sabbaths with Clive then; it was
after he refused to send the letter to Khatami. Clive dropped by to
pick up two students who were staying with me that weekend, to take
them to the Sabbath meeting which was to be held at Sheila Martin's
house. The students were Ron Goins and Peter Wagstaff. Peter is
the man from England.

When Clive arrived -- he came between 11 a.m. and noon -- he told me
he was going to hold a vote at that meeting to decide where the
chapel was to be placed. At that time Danforth was just beginning
the re investigation; despite all the excavation and earth moving the
government did after April 19, there was still much evidence to be
found in the earth at the site of the old chapel. Thus I came to the
conclusion that the crime scene should not be covered up, and told
Clive what I thought. As Clive left I told him that I would stand
behind whatever the group decided.

Now let's pay attention to the time line. Clive dropped by between
11 a.m. and noon. The Sabbath meeting would have been held about one
hour later, and would have lasted three or four hours. So it would
have been about 3 or 4 p.m. before the results of the vote were known.

After Clive left, I went to the library. At about 3:00 pm Peter
Wagstaff approached my desk. He told me that the Davidians had voted
to put the new chapel on the site of the old chapel. I was grieved
that they would do such a thing, but again made excuses for them in
my own mind. I had already told Clive I would support whatever "the
group" decided.

Later that day, just after sunset -- it must have been about 5 p.m.
-- I drove to the Mt. Carmel Center to pick up one of my housemates.
What I found there was so shocking that it completely altered my life.

When I arrived, I saw a sign stuck in the ground at the site of the
old chapel. This sign read "The Phoenix Project." The Phoenix
Project was the CIA program that assassinated Vietnamese civilians
during the war. The phoenix is also a pagan symbol of resurrection.
What a strange sign to put up. The Davidians hated paganism and it
symbols; and they, as civilians, had been assassinated as the
Vietnamese had been. An American flag was flying right at the spot.
The last time the American flag few at that site was on April 19,
1993, when the US burned the old church down.

To my astonishment, I found the boundaries of the new chapel had been
measured and marked off. Stakes had been driven into the ground and
string tied around the stakes.

The workmen were already gone. I looked around for Clive, but he was
not there. I assumed someone had put those stakes there without his
knowing about it. After all, Clive had driven from my house just an
hour or so before for the Sabbath meeting to vote on the placement of
the chapel. How could Clive drive to the Sabbath meeting at Sheila's
house (a good 30 minute drive away), conduct the Sabbath meeting,
hold a discussion on the placement of the new chapel, take the vote,
return to Mt. Carmel, meet up with the workmen, and have the workmen
survey and stake the ground in so short a time?

I was furious at what I saw. I ran up, got my penknife out and cut
all the leveling lines. I pulled up the stakes except for the ones
marking the four corners of the building. As for the American flag,
I will only say that particular flag disappeared from the site and
will never fly again.

Doyle Says: "I Helped Them. I Measured."

It was dark before I met Clive at his trailer. I did not mention
what I had done, I simply told him the news about the work done on
the foundations. I was shocked by his lack of surprise at the news.

Then he told me that on the morning of the Sabbath meeting he had
found the workmen at the site working, and he told them to stop. But
I reasoned: How could these men even begin their work when they did
not know where to pound the stakes?

Given the time Clive arrived at my house, given the time it would
have taken to conduct services and take the vote, given the amount of
work done in measuring and setting the foundations, it was obvious
that Clive had already decided where the chapel would be built before
he picked my housemates up at noon that day. The work had to have
been done when Clive was at the Sabbath meeting, supposedly deciding
where to put he new church. The vote on the placement of the chapel
must have been a sham. It began to dawn on me that Doyle was a
cold-blooded liar.

So I asked Clive how the workmen knew where to pound the stakes, and
how they knew the dimensions. He said:

"I helped them. I measured for them."

That's not stopping them from working. That's actively assisting them.

"How could you do it Clive?" I asked. Clive shot back: "Christ
worked on the Sabbath."

"Are you Christ? Or did Christ tell you to do this thing? Where is He
so that I can follow Him?" I asked in all seriousness. "No. No. No."
He mumbled as he made for the door to his trailer.

"Repent, Doyle!" I demanded. "If you fear God, repent for what you
have done. It is a crime before God!"

I told Clive to take out the four stakes I had left in the ground,
and to apologize to the Davidian community for lying and pretending
they had a voice in where the chapel was to be built. But he just
ignored me.

The next day Ron Goins, Peter Wagstaff, and I went to the Mt. Carmel
Center at sunrise. No one was there but Clive, mowing the grass.
Clive asked me "Why did you cut the strings, are you just trying to
be belligerent?'

Ron told Clive we could not help him if he refused to repent for what
he did. Clive refused, saying he did nothing wrong. When Ron told
him that he was willing to go to jail if he did not pray, Doyle's
knees dropped to the ground as if someone had hit him in the back of
the head with a two by four.

We all prayed for God's help but when it came time for Clive to ask
for forgiveness for laying the foundation on the Sabbath, he just
didn't do it. I listened very carefully. He beat around the bush,
all right, but did not ask forgiveness for laying the foundations of
the church on the Sabbath.

"The Ox Is In the Ditch" And Other Excuses

Clive and a number of so-called Davidians and their supporters have
offered different excuses and lies to explain away Clive's behavior.
One such excuse for laying the foundations on the Sabbath was that
"The ox is in the ditch." But there was no ox in the ditch. There was
no emergency. The work could have been done the next day.

I think I've mentioned before that Clive is indecisive and he
dilly-dallies. Well, he sure didn't dilly dally when it came to
putting in those foundations. In they went on the Sabbath. He did
it on purpose.

Many other excuses were posted by so-called "Davidian" supporters on
the Mt. Carmel website discussion board, the one run by Tommy Cook.
Some said Clive did not work on September 18, he really just stopped
the others from working. But during one of my protests outside the
gates of Mt. Carmel, I got Clive's admission on video tape. Clive
said, on camera: "I measured." Then came the charge I had morphed
the footage.

When it was pointed out that an independent researcher took the
footage and that I was not skilled enough technically to morph, a new
lie was told: Clive's supporter said I had destroyed ALL stakes and
measuring work, so that the Sabbath work is not a component in
today's church. And besides, it is perfectly Biblical to break
Biblical law in order to save the lawless (presumably, the builders;
presumably Clive's purpose was to save them). Finally, there was an
assertion that Clive had repented for working, so it was all made
better. But that's not true, either, as I have just said.

When the excuses were challenged, Tommy simply took the exchanges
down from the discussion board.
I captured some of these exchanges and you can read them on:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98
Look between December 26, 2000, Msg. 539, and March 16, 2001, Msg. 857.

Abomination Built On Blood Of Martyrs

Think of the significance of Clive's act. Here is hollowed ground,
ground that ran red with the blood of of people who died for their
beliefs. They believed keeping the Sabbath was the cornerstone of
salvation. And what does Clive do? He desecrates it by laying
foundations on that very ground -- on the Sabbath.

[Readers: You can see where the new chapel was placed. Look at this URL:
http://Public-action/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/map/d_map01.html ]

The section marked "Stage" in the ATF map was the site of the old
Davidian chapel. The bodies of Raymond Friesen, Malcolm Livingston,
Floyd L. Houtman, Scott Sonobe, Douglas W. ("Wayne") Martin were
allegedly recovered from that area.]

In Exodus 35, God lays down the conditions under which the
Tabernacle is to be built. "Six days shall work be done, but on the
Seventh day thee shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the
Lord: whosever doeth work therein shall be put to death." (Ex. 35:2)
It seems that Clive went out of his way to dishonor the martyrs by
committing this heinous act at the site of their martyrdom, exactly
defying God's commandment relating to the building of a place of
worship.

Inverted Crosses In The Synagogue of Satan

Rational people -- people like you, Carol -- often miss the obvious.
Those who would control the world believe in the power of the unseen.
As I've told you, they believe in the power of Satan and use symbols
and signs to call up his power. And they use symbols to communicate
to each other, to communicate victory. The Masons, for one, are
widely known for this practice.

This government is Satanic. Believe what you will about David
Koresh, but his murderers obviously believed he was who he claimed to
be.

Did you know there are three upside-down crosses built into the front
window of the Cover-up Church? The architecture and the symbols used
in places of worship are of utmost importance. An upside down cross
is a symbol for Lucifer. And the Cover-up Church has three of them
-- three as in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Those
windows communicate this message: Death to the Father. Death to the
Son. Death to the Holy Ghost.

I was able to capture a picture of this window and you can see it at
my website.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98/files/NewFrontwindow.gif

Notice the guy on the ladder is wearing the black X. That's the
black X of evil conquering good. The black X was flown from one of
those tanks at the height of the fire at the Mt. Carmel Center on
April 19.

Star of David (al-Roy)

If you visit the Cover-up Church, you will notice a sign by the front
gates. Upon the sign is the Star of David, the symbol of Zionism.
Remember that David thought Israel was "filthy." Remember what
Houteff said about the Jews. Remember there was no Zionist symbol on
the Davidian flag. But now Clive features the Star of David.

Tribute To "Our" Sheriff Harwell

Also on that sign there is a tribute to the late Sheriff Jack Harwell
of McLennan County. The tribute reads: "Remember our late sheriff
Jack Harwell." Note the use of the word "our" sheriff to describe
Harwell. Harwell cooperated 100% with the ATF and the FBI in the
slaughter of the people who loved David Koresh. Yet there is not one
mention of David Koresh or the martyrs on Clive Doyle's sign. [See
Endnote.]

Pharisaic Groves of Trees

Clive Doyle and his supporters have made a big deal about planting
trees around the Synagogue of Satan; there's a grove planted in the
front, and a grove planted to the left. What does the Bible say
about planting groves of trees near a church?

"Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar
of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee." Deuteronomy 16:21.

[Reader, you may review X98's analysis in "Groves of Fire," at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98/message/577 ]

You will find many instances of God forbidding the establishment of
groves of trees. In "The Plot Against Christianity," Elizabeth
Dilling points out that tree worship is a Talmudic pagan practice.
We all know about tree planting in Israel, don't we? Now we have in
the Cover-up Church. The fingerprints of the Zionists are all over
the Synagogue of Satan.

"Church" Closed To Public On Sabbath

But here is the cherry on the whipped cream. I went to Mt. Carmel on
Saturday, April 14, the Sabbath day. And I found the gates were
locked. The "church" was closed to the public.

Yet there were cars in the church parking lot. Then I learned that
Clive and others -- including David's mother -- were actually in the
"church" having a meeting. After they finished the meeting, they
opened the gates and drove past me.

Later I learned that the "church" has been closed to the public on
the Sabbath for the last six months. Think about that. What kind of
a church is closed on the Sabbath?

This is the Synagogue of Satan. Clive's Synagogue of Satan is his
vengeance on David Koresh.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98/message/1141

Doyle Is One Of Theirs

For those who do not understand the world of black magic, there is
"rational" proof of who Clive Doyle is. Sen. Danforth said in his
report that the Davidians set the fire that "killed the children."
Then he gave all kinds of circumstantial evidence that Clive is
Suspect Number One in the arson. Danforth says Doyle "admitted" to
the Texas Rangers that the Davidians started the fire, Doyle's jacket
was soaked in flammable liquids and his hands were burnt, etc. Just
realize that Clive Doyle should be arrested for the murder of the
Davidian children. But he isn't. That tells you all you need to
know. The reason Doyle is not arrested? Doyle is one of theirs.

===

Endnote: On the Sabbath day of April 14, 2001, Andrew X98 was present
outside the closed gates of the Mt. Carmel Center, warning visitors
about the Cover-up Church, and drawing their attention to the Star of
David al-Roy and to the tribute to McLennan County Sheriff Jack
Harwell, "Remember our sheriff Jack Harwell."

[ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98/message/1141 ]

On April 19, 2001, X98 was outside the Mt. Carmel gates again:
Someone had painted over the words: "Remember our sheriff Jack
Harwell."

How long will it be before the those posing as followers of David
Koresh paint over the Star of David al Roy?

==

Copyright, April 19, 2001 -- May be reproduced for non-commercial purposes

--
Carol A. Valentine
President, Public Action, Inc.

Have you seen the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum?
See what they did to the mothers and children--
http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum