Subj: Re: Lawyer's Screwup Led to FBI Coverup at Waco
Date: 7/28/00 5:33:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From:  David Hardy- Attorney
To: WacoTragedyNews@aol.com

I love it.

Let's see.... FBI hid the fact that pyros were used for *seven years.* It
withheld the info from the criminal defendants. Justice filed a formal
investigation stating that no pyros were used in 1993. FBI hid the evidence
in the civil case, until McNulty uncovered it in 1999. It stood by while
the AG testified in 1995 that no pyros were used (and where did she get
that info?). FBI filed false statements under oath in my 1998-99 FOIA case,
failing to reveal the pyros and denying that any early morning FLIRs
existed.

But that all is solely attributable to a slip-up by a "very junior"
attorney, who sorta forgot to tell anyone back in '93, while FBI thought
that she must have done so all these years. Ooopsy-do!

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RE: Re: Waco report says earlier Justice inquiry incorrect,incomplete

The following article distributed by Ada Coddington is probably the
finest article written by Lee Hancock (DMN) concerning the events of
Waco. The single most damning facet of the danforth inquiry is his
statement that there was no "broad government cover up..." He then
states that fbi and justice dept. officials dragged their feet on his
requests for information from them. Well dan, WHY? Why did they drag
their feet? Were they not in fact COVERING SOMETHING UP? danforth's "no
broad cover up" statement is a clever piece of lawyer speak which when
translated by the common man means there was a cover up... just not a
"BROAD" cover up! Well dan, so much for your pathetic attempt to quell
the furor over the governments actions in Waco. With that one
dichotomous statement you have insured the belief that there was and
continues to be a COVER UP by the government. What are they still hiding
from you dan? You don't know the answer to that because THEY control
the information you supposedly seek. It's kinda like the missing front
door dan. Why don't you start with locating it- and then we might have
a LEGITIMATE investigation under way.

I was going to end my soap box speech there but I have something else to
add.

The obvious fact is that justice dept. underlings, with or without the
knowledge of their superiors, operated without accountability during the
danforth so-called probe. danforth complains he had to go to the head
of the fbi to force lower levels to cooperate with him. This is
important to note because it is also the SINGLE GREATEST PROBLEM of the
Waco siege after the fbi took control of the botched batf raid.
UNDERLINGS on the ground at Waco (JAMAR, RICKS, RODGERS etc.) were
hell-bent on revenge- above all else- and did virtually anything they
desired, all with the tacit approval of weak bosses. They did what they
wished without a shred of accountability to the American people or the
constitution. They were as immoral kids in a candy shop. They were then,
and now, ABOVE THE LAW in their own eyes and in apparent reality.
Sadly, this unaccountability continues TO THIS DAY.

Who is at fault? First, those who gave a wink and a nod in the batf,
fbi, and the justice department. Second, the White House administration
who twiddled their collective thumbs. Third, Congress, who shook their
fingers in insincere anger. Fourth, the federal court system, who issued
free get out of jail cards for all government employees. And last but
not least, the American people, who have allowed their responsibility of
self government to slip through their fingers- unnoticed.

-David Rucker

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sharlene,

I just thought I would share my humble opinions on Danforth's report. What
really bothers me about Danforth is that he scolded public officials for
"eroding public confidence," and, in his report, calls McNulty's films
"sensational." The general tone of the report is that it was unethical of
the reporters, the public officials, and journalists to have even raised
serious questions about the government's conduct. If Danforth would have
acknowledged that the initial ATF raid was a publicity stunt, and that the
sheer amount of force used was wrong...if he would not have said that Koresh
"promised to come out several times and then failed to"...if he had
acknowledged that the deliberate confrontational techniques used in the
standoff almost secured a violent end...if he would have said that the
children died of blunt force trauma, as the autopsies indicated, instead of
"stabbing and gunshot wounds"...if he had acknowledged the lack of
qualification and contradiction between the VDS members...if he would have
acknowledged that the wide conflict of opinion about the FLIR does not give
VDS's conclusion of "glint" 100% certainty...if he would have acknowledged
that scrutiny of the government's conduct by independent filmmakers,
journalists, etc. was beneficial in regards to getting to the bottom of the
matter...if he would have acknowledged the large mounds of evidence that the
FBI bleached after the fire...if he would have acknowledged that the
deliberate CS gassing of the inhabitants was wrong...if he would have talked
to the press during the investigation, rather than keeping a veil of
secrecy...if he would not have released the preliminary results exactly a
week after the Jury's verdict...if he would not have suddenly announced that
he was reconsidering a vice-presidential run with Bush...if all of these
things were true, then I might have believed that Danforth's report provided
a measure of closure to one of the most shameful episodes in American
history.

J.Y.
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Sharlene,

-> First, Danforth is lying about the alleged tape of the Davidians
-> presented as evidence they started the fire. Even if they had started
-> some fires, that

It is not scientific evidence, but of course he is not a fire expert and
doesn't know if spilling fuel would start the kind of fire that
ensued., the big problem is simply that he evidentially accepted the
transcript at face value.

He was interviewed on the Jim Lehrer Newshour. I think it actually
important to listen to what he has to say because it gives us the
arguments that need to be overcome (that may be made to Senators and
members of Congress etc)

-> The injection of CS gas alone could be expected to have caused a fire
-> in that environment, when any spark or even gunfire could have set it
-> off.

Well I know that but he was probably was lied to about that as well.

CS is supposed not to be flammable.

Of course it actually does start fires. One of the most famous was the
one that destroyed the SLA hideout in 1974 (which was NOT blamed on tear
gas but instead some stupid speculation was used - you can read it in
Noguchi's book)

Another probable tear gas fire was the one that killed Gordon Kahl in
Arkansas in 1983.

I am sure there were people who knew it does start fires AND THAT IT WAS
NOT GENERALLY ACCEPTED THAT CS TEAR GAS COULD START A FIRE.

Therefore, the perfect crime.

-> Allard, which are nothing if not credible. Perhaps not conclusive in
-> the view of some, but certainly enough to doubt and prevent any
-> conclusion that

Right. Not conclusive is different from not credible.

I am sure he took the advice of SOMEBODY to stress how certain he was.

I think he actually was genuinely convinced but could not possibly be as
certain as he claims.

-> Fourth, Danforth is lying about the absence of a cover-up. He admits
-> the FBI had a "bunker mentality" and failed to "be forthcoming" with
-> evidence, especially about the use of incendiary rounds, but claims
-> that is not obstruction of justice? Of course it is a cover-up.

Good point here and again an indication he must be letting other people
tell him what to say. Because of the supposed great dangers of
unjustified suspicion of the FBI.

He's an idiot. But I don't think he is one of the people trying to
cover up a murder. It just that he was interviewed before being picked
and Janet Reno et al got a good idea of his manner of thinking.

-> It is reported that polls indicate 61 percent of the American people
-> think the federal government caused the tragedy at Mount Carmel, and
-> is guilty of crimes in that matter. After the Danforth Report, that
-> percentage will only increase.

Don't delude yourself. No, it will go down, but only marginally.

Some other people will get more deeply convinced about a cover-up, and
maybe how developed the cover-up strategy is, and begin to really how
much they might be capable of in the way of cover-up.

-> increase. The only thing that will make this issue go away is to
-> criminally prosecute all the government personnel involved, up to the
-> President of the United States, to exonerate the Davidians charged
-> with crimes, to fully compensate the survivors of the victims, and to
-> make reforms to insure that nothing like this ever happens again.
-> Nothing less will do.

Well, yes, but if we are at that stage, we will already have won the
main battle.

You know where this is heading?

The execution of Bill Clinton by lethal injection in the state of Texas.

Between 5-20 years after the cover-up completely collapses.

Five years if he gives up his appeals.

Of course, he could be undercharged.

Sammy Finkelman

*"Here is something I consider very important"*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On July 16, Dopewar wrote: "FBI appointees who talked to Reno told her that
CS and methylene chloride was not toxic and flammable; that it was perfectly
safe for use on a civilian population in that situation. CS is banned for use
on civilians by international law."

According the official report prepared by the Justice Department on the
Branch Davidian incident, then-FBI Director Wm. Sessions actually warned
Janet Reno that both times the FBI had used CS gas in ferret rounds,
suspended in methylene chloride crystals (which is what was used on the
Davidians), in the past, the result had been flash fires. The first time was
in Washington State in 1973. The second was when they attacked the Symbionese
Liberation Army's "hideout" in Los Angeles in 1983, seeking Patty Hearst.
Sessions also wrote to Reno that this type of teargas could prove fatal for
the elderly, people with respiratory problems, and small children. Reno gave
the order to use the gas anyway. This information is directly from the FBI's
own report. You can read it at any public library that has a "government
documents" section.

Odom
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gov clears itself on Waco. That’s a Surprise?

Danforth's investigation clears Gov of all wrongdoing its what was expected,
but not what was hoped for? The hope was they would admit wrongdoing & then
correct it. Danforth’s saying Agents were LESS THAN HONEST but we believe
them anyway?

There was nothing independent about the investigation where a former Senator
will look into wrongdoing and cover up by so many insiders which he had
worked with most of his life.

Yes there would have been a big uproar had they found the Government and its
Agents in the wrong, and many heads would have rolled, but it would have
been less costly to fix the problem than its going to cost them now.

You can only fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all
the time, but not all, all the time. This time it’s a no sell.

The questions are still not answered and the issue will not go away. If they
wont deal with it openly they will have to deal with it the hard way.

Danforth had a chance to force the Government to come clean, the same with
the Judge on the Waco trial but the questions remain regardless of the
attempted cover up of both.

Special Counsel John Danforth said federal agents did not start the fire at
the compound, did not shoot at Davidians as the compound burned and did not
engage in a "massive conspiracy and coverup."

Ok what are the new names for, hiding evidence? Destroying evidence?
Withholding evidence? Altering evidence? Changing after operations reports
to reflect different reporting of what happened by the whole BATF? Lying to
Congress? Just to mention a few.

Are these not felony charges? Who was charged? Why did they have to plead
immunity if nothing they did was wrong? Why did they block questions from
the court?

And you don’t see any cover up or conspiracy here?

He placed blame for the deaths of the Davidians and four federal agents
during the siege completely on the shoulders of cult-leader David Koresh and
certain of his followers. They started the fire and "shot at least 20 of
their own people, including five children" on the last day of the siege, he
said.

You forgot they also bombed Pearl Harbor and shot Kennedy. But why didn’t
they kill all the BATF when they had them cold?

If they can kill babies why didn’t the kill all the BATF when they ambushed
them coming in the second story window and before the BATF shot their dogs
beside the front porch?

I never could figure out why the so-called ambush didn’t take place when
they had the BATF coming out of the Cattle trailers and coming across all
that open distance to the front door.

Why did they wait until the BATF was inside the building and had already
killed their dogs and still they allowed them to run around back before they
did this so-called ambush.

It would have been much simpler to have just shot the bastards as they came
out of the cattle trailers.

Expressly with the Fifty Caliber Machine Gun they were said to have had and
with all the other full auto guns it would have been a Turky shoot. At least
then they would not have had to suffer having more killed and wounded than
the BATF.

Now to me, that is, or would have been, an ambush. One person with a Fifty
Cal machine gun would have almost wiped out those sorry excuses for lawmen.

What ever happened to that Fifty Caliber Machine Gun the BATF and the FBI
claimed the Davidians had? Another little not so true story? No our
government Agents wouldn’t lie, would they?

"All of us should be more skeptical of those who make sensational
accusations of evil acts by government," he said. "At the same time,
government personnel, especially government lawyers, owe the American people
an openness and candor that was lacking in the response to the tragedy in
Waco."

Here is some truth, but when are we going to get any, “openness and candor
that was lacking in the response to the tragedy in Waco” Its still lacking.

But Mr. Danforth did say an FBI agent, an FBI attorney and some members of
the government team involved in the 1994 criminal trial against the
Davidians were “LESS THAN HONEST” about the use of those tear-gas grenades
on the last day of the siege.

Less than honest? Does he say they lied? What does ( less than honest )
mean? Could it mean they lied all the time? Some of the time? One time?

Is he admitting we have less that honest people working in our Justice Dept?
If so why are they still working in the Justice Dept if they are not
completely honest?

The ones he admitted that were less than honest, what punishment did they
receive, for being less than honest?

Are Promotions, medals, bonuses and a raise in pay now considered a
punishment for being less than honest?

He said public confidence in the government was shaken by 1999 revelations
that those grenades were used, "albeit harmlessly."

It may come as news to some, but public confidence in government is not
shaken? It’s destroyed completely.

Those grenades were a minor part of it. They were just another one of the
“less than honest” government outright lie. Or should we say, a cover-up
that fell apart?

Mr. Danforth said he decided to publicize the preliminary results of his
investigation after a jury's civil verdict last week vindicated the
government because "I have always felt that it was important to answer these
dark questions to the American people as soon as we were sure of the
answers."

This statement "I have always felt that it was important to answer these
dark questions to the American people as soon as we were sure of the
answers." Does it mean we needed time to rig the evidence and control what
the jury will hear, so we get the answer we want?

He later said of his 150-page report, "I hope that it is completely
convincing to the American people."

You convinced me.

These crazy Dravidians attacked the less the honest BATF in their church,
sorry I forgot Compound, after Koresh couldn’t be arrested in town by a lone
trainee desk cop, so they had to mount an assault on the Church, sorry,
Compound.

We will ignore the fact, that about two weeks before the attack which we
will now call a serving of a search warrant, that two agents of the BATF was
at this Church, which we now call a Compound, at Koresh’s invitation to do
some shooting at their range.

This is just after the Texas Child Services woman made a lone call to look
into the children at the Davidians Church, School and Home, which the
Government and their lap dogs like to call it a Compound, just to make it
sound sinister. Anyway this woman had no trouble and found no problems with
the children.

The BATF being brave and not like that little woman, had to train at an Army
Base to do their visit. They had bulletproof vests helmets and full auto
machine guns with helicopter support and about 100 men to deliver an
improper search warrant to the same place this woman had gone alone. Next
time let a woman do it?

They had to shoot the mother dog and her puppies in the enclosed pen before
they could knock at the front door with a battering ram that Koresh was
holding open and standing out front of unarmed, and with children all over
the place.

Could the fact that the BATF shot the dogs with out any reason may have
angered some of the people inside?

Mr. Danforth do you have any dogs? What would you do if someone shot it, or
them in front of you? Now lets be better than a Less than honest with your
answer.

Ok now the BATF is forced to shoot Koresh the same way they shot the
puppies, because he must have been in the way of the battering ram and its
no fun if you cant batter down some door.

How did the BATF agents get on the roof? Why were they on the roof? Were
they up there just in case the door was stuck? And the Grenades they threw
into the upstairs window, was to do what? Wake any children in the room? Did
they think Davidian babies are trained from birth to handle that Fifty
Caliber Machine Gun?

You did ask how the BATF got the Agents on the roof, and into the upstairs
rooms with one throwing Grenades in the room where two other Agents had just
entered, when all the time they were being ambushed down stairs.

I would love to hear the answer to that. But then I have so many questions
and no place to get the answers.

I thank you mister Danforth for setting me straight on the facts. And if I
may give an opinion of what I think of your investigation? Well to be
truthful I would have to consider it as LESS THAN HONEST.
Schantz
http://www.lewisnews.com/
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To the list:
The civil trial and the investigation could have waited until the Democrats were out of office, covering their asses up. It all would have looked a lot different then. It looks like the civil trial and so-called Danforth Investigation were timed to coincide perfectly to suit the Clinton Whitehouse. I had hoped the trial, etc, could wait until Bush was in office. Truth doesnt stand a chance under Clinton's reign.
Mary W.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

----- Original Message -----
From: <WacoTragedyNews@aol.com>
To: <undisclosed-recipients:;>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2000 8:24 PM
Subject: Waco report says earlier Justice inquiry incorrect, incomplete
Special counsel's

I don't know how many are on this list, but I would hazard a guess there are
more than 40 conspiracy nuts here. Have we 40 ever made a loud protest, just
think what we could have done if there was 80 of us? Its just another
attempt to make us look bad and they are suppose to be the good guys?
Must be a typo and should have read "No one short of the 400.000 conspiracy
nuts on the Internet who are still obsessing about Waco take issue with
Danforth's findings.
That sounds a little closer to the truth.
But when was the last time we had truth from our government? Or should we
use the new Danforth term, LESS THAN HONEST.
Schantz
http://www.lewisnews.com/

"No one short of the 40 conspiracy nuts on the Internet who are still
obsessing about Waco take issue with Danforth's findings of no serious
wrongdoing by the government. But the embers weren't even cool in Waco
before
the Justice Department began stonewalling and blocking legitimate
congressional oversight, legitimate discovery requests from both civil and
criminal lawyers, and even a legitimate review by their own agency," the
official said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-> trusting in the government who we know has lied to us. The FBI has
-> lied to us consistently... most people realize that and know it...
-> but they're not

Actually I think most people don't realize that or the politicsof this
would be different. It would be more correct most well-informed people
think so - but there are very few well informed people - and the White
House has orchestrated a con gamewe whereby Freeh and the FBI are the
honest people who want an investigation of Chinagate - and none off that
can possibly be true. (and you know the objectyions never get anywhere
and anytime they can cause troiuble Freeh tends to withdraw them and he
doesn't want to talk to Comngress etc - even the LaBella memo is almost
certainly the Clinton version of what an argument for an investigation
should be like and that means it fiocuses on the wrong things and is in
some way exculpatory.

But with Congress beleiving in the greatness of the FBI as against the
Justice Departtment who is going to believe taht they are BOTH TOGETHER
engaged ina coverup of a mass murder?

Clinton is clevewr and he understands that a coverup really succeeds
when he controls the arguments of BOTH SIDES.

Criminal dfense atttormneys I think know this too. the BEST argument if
AVOR of a position is a weak or refuted argument AGAINSt it. That his
number one modus operendi. That's why I don't truust the FLIR or the
claims about shooting etc.

I think shots were fored but not when they said maybe and the shots and
the pyrotechnic devices they admioitted have nothing to do with the
fire. I am siuuere that was CS tear gas -- and premeditated.
SIBA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Proof that Swett was setting up the Davidian's law suit. How interesting
that he not only found something that nobody else found but that he also gave
evidence to the Danforth investigation.

This little weasel could easily have faked the evidence.

http://www.postnet.com/postnet/specialreports/waco.nsf/ByDocID/0F30655E21AC8CF5862568F00072353D?OpenDocument

Fan
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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/fedagencies/july-dec00/danforth_7-21.html

Here is the text of the Danforth interview, taken from the PBS web site:

WACO INVESTIGATOR July 21, 2000

Shar, check out this quote:
-----------------------
JIM LEHRER: They, in effect, lied?

SEN. JOHN DANFORTH: They in effect lied.

JIM LEHRER: Yes. And how many people were involved in this?

SEN. JOHN DANFORTH: Well, these are matters that are under investigation
right now. There was one FBI lawyer who had information who did not pass
it on. We are looking into the so-called criminal trial team, the team
of Justice Department lawyers who prosecuted the Branch Davidians back
in 1993-1994. And we're looking into the question of why the projectiles
that were shot, the pyrotechnic projectiles and the shell casings are
missing.
-----------------------
The reference to the "so-called criminal trial team." First thing that
struck me- do you think that these low-life sneaky bastards would try to
set up Bill Johnston for the fall? He's the only one from Justice who had
the guts to buck the company line. Scary thought. They're capable of it.

R.L.
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I think the more likely target is the Jans ( husband and wife team) read Danforth's report!

Regards, Mike Mc Nulty
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