Subj: Waco. A Reply to Rick Ross from Fred Mrozek

From fred mrozek on October 16, 1999 at 15:54:41:
In Reply to: Rick Ross: raross@home.com. October 16, 1999 at 11:49:44:

*Posted for discussion and informational purposes only.*

:Subj: Waco
Date: 10/16/1999 8:13:27 AM US Mountain Standard Time
From: raross@home.com (Rick Ross)

: The following statement really seems to define your position:

: "If proof is defined by the TV Networks and political interests
: that would suffer from exposure to the truth, then many of us will
: never be satisfied. And we will be quite proud of that."

: Basically what this tells me is that regardless of the facts people like
: yourself will simply dismiss anything that does not conform to your
: conspiracy theories--as either part of media conspiracy or the result of
: dark "political interests."

No Mr. Ross. We will accept evidence once we
can rest assured that it is reliable. And we have
grounds for be very suspicious of such evidence. Here
are those grounds amongst a sea of others:

*********

McNulty responding to DMN article.

> FBI transmitters picked up voices of compound occupants discussing
>pouring fuel and setting fires throughout that morning.

Too bad this article doesn't mention that audio expert Dr. Harry Holien (one of the top forensic
audio men in the country) concludes that the tape is inauthentic. The supposedly continuous
and unedited audiotape has frequent editing, and shows signs of having been recorded on two
different machines and then assembled into a single tape.

But let's assume this is true for a moment. So DMN contends that, for hours before the fire,
FBI heard radio transmissions indicating fires were to be started.... and kept escalating its
assault, despite knowledge that kids were at risk and that the attorney general had ordered
them not to endanger children. That's certainly a stunning defense of the agency, isn't it? *IF*
we accept the DMN version of the facts, the agency's conduct amounts to manslaughter. So
the only debate left is whether the appropriate charge would be murder or manslaughter. Not
much of a defense.

**********************

: The email you forward really does not respond to the factual points of
: my last email

This is an utter lie. Anyone who cares can lay the texts
side by side.

and this seems to be a consistent device/pattern.

The only patterns anywhere is those of Federal
reluctance to divulge any evidences that are damaging
to their positions, the impossibility of dragging
such government apologists to confront an IR Video
that shows the feds shooting at Davidians, the impossibility
of getting people like Ross to admit to any of the
motives that the feds had for staging a "showcase"
raid, for the sake of publicity, at ten in the morning
when 4:00 am would have more typical for raids without TV
networks present, and the difficulty of getting
a cultist like Ross to see that the feds left so much evidence
of malice that any normal person would be in jail
for manslaughter or murder.

That is,
: with many of the Waco conspiracy buffs--if it doesn't conform to their
: conspiracy theory about Waco they either ignore it or dismiss it without
: offering objective supporting proof for that position.

Give a single example of a proven fact that I reject.

Yet you do precisely that regarding the IR video.

: I respectfully disagree with Alan Stone, if in fact--he said Koresh was
: not a psychopath or sociopath. It seems to me rather obvious he was both
: deeply disturbed and delusional

From the Movie W:ROE transcript.

Narration: After the Waco disaster, Alan Stone, a Harvard
professor of both law and psychiatry, was asked to serve on a United
States Department of Justice panel examining law enforcement policy
toward unconventional groups like the Branch Davidians, and leaders
like David Koresh.

Alan A. Stone, Harvard University: I think that Koresh was not a
criminal psychopathic. He had as a youngster spent months memorizing
the Bible. And particularly these passages about the seventh seal and
that sort of repetitive study, memorization, throwing yourself into
that kind of disciplined project is not what sociopaths do. And he was
able to convince the other people by his knowledge of the Bible and
the way he put it together--that's how he convinced people like Mr.
Martin and Mr. Schneider, who were both intelligent, serious people.
Mr. Martin was a graduate of Harvard Law School. He was one of our
earliest African American graduates. He was certainly not a weirdo, he
was certainly not a criminal, he was certainly not a psychopath. He
had gone on and done religious studies after leaving Harvard Law
School and had become interested in Koresh's teachings. That is how he
got into the compound. So the idea that these people like Schneider
and Martin were somehow criminal types or people who had just sort of
been buffaloed by Koresh I think is a most unfortunate
mis-characterization.

--and clearly conformed to the pattern of
: behavior attributed to both a classic psychopath and sociopath.

Most people reading this stuff would probably
side with Dr. Stone. Assuming you ARE a better
clinician than he, perhaps you can explain how
the illness of Koresh in any way justifies or
mitigates all the responsibility the feds have
for initiating highly unusual actions that
seemed optimized by someone trying aggravate a situation
rather than to cure one.

Though
: Mr. Stone is entitled to his opinion it seems that the majority of
: mental health professionals would agree with the assessment of Louis
: West, M.D. psychiatrist and a professor of psychiatry at the University
: of California at Los Angeles medical school see
: http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco12.html

Again, Koreshes predilection for young chicks
was the stuff that should have been brought up
in court on the subject of statutory rape - NOT
an excuse for killing most of the surrounding neighborhood.

: Stuart Wright is often recommended by cult groups such as Scientology as
: a resource see http://www.rickross.com/reference/CChapel_2.html . He
: appears to be essentially a "cult apologist" and consistently defends
: such groups.

"Cult apologist?"

I will cite on randomly selected excerpt from
a paper by Wright and you can point out which Cult
he is representing as an apologist:

(First Wright quotes the textbooks on Negotiation
rules. These are in quotation marks and are followed
by numbers with the references within said textbooks
and manuals. Then I will continue to type in the
statements of Wright as he illustrates the violations
of these rules committed by the feds. Keep in mind
that this paper details about 20 examples of such violations.)

Principle #4. Negotiators Should Avoid Escalating Stress.

"One task of the negotiator is to reduce stress. (39)

"If the negotiators want themselves or the hostage-taker to come
up with new ideas, they need to reduce stress levels as much as possible." (40)

"High levels of stress interfere with negotiators performance." (41)

"Needs of food, drink, sleep, etc. are all affected
by the situation. With time, these needs become
predominant and are unfulfilled. The unfulfillment increases
stress and anxiety." (42)

"Stress affects the hostage taker's decision-making
skills Stress elevates emotions, speeds physiological
processes and interferes with cognitive processing.
The ability to make decisions is hindered or even ceases." (43)

"Hunger, fatigue, and other needs all combine to wear
down the hostage taker and deteriorate decision-making.
This cycle repeats itself time and again, each time
increasing stress, frustration, anxiety and anger." (44)

If the negotiator is effective, stress levels will
dissipate and provide an atmosphere conducive to a
peaceful resolution: "With time, the negotiator can
reduce stress, calm the hostage-taker, improve
decision-making skills and fulfill the most needs. The
hostage taker feels better and seeks to resolve
the incident." (45)

Violation.

The HRT's response plan in Waco after March 17
was referred to as a "stress escalation" program in
the Justice log. (46) This is the most obvious and defiant
breach of the fundamental hostage and barricade protocol
evidenced by the government. It is virtually
impossible to reconcile a stress escalation strategy
with the principles of stress reduction. No
amount of government spin can erase the inexplicable
and inexcusable contradiction. The only rationale
offered for the stress escalation plan was that it
would result in "driving a psychological wedge between
Koresh and his followers,(47) in the apparent hope
that group fragmentation would occur. Tragically, the strategy
produced the opposite effect, bonding members
together against a perceived common enemy (similar
to the effect of heightened attitudes of patriotism
during wartime), a basic sociological axiom.(48)

end of excerpt

(fred again: Please recognize that Pete Smerick and
the other Psychological advisors told the FBI
in four memoes starting on March 2nd that such
pressure tactics WOULD DRIVE the Davidians towards
Koresh and the religious scenarios they all had
explored in their escatologies. FOUR MEMOES Ross.
Not one, not two. FOUR. Then, Smerick reported
his handler came in and rode his ass until he changed
the advice.
This meant that the ass-rider knew exactly
what he was looking for, and wanted Smerick et. al.
to deliver it so the FBI could cover its ass later.
This is the type of thing that really takes on the
appearance of malicious aggravation of a situation
which could have otherwise been solved with the basic
intuition of my 7 year-old daughter and a check
for a pile of Pizza Hut pizzas. It takes on the
appearance of murder if the result is deadly as
Smerick et. al. had predicted to the FBI.)

SO. Now I demand that Ross explain to us which parts
of this text seems like an apologetic for the Davidians
or any other cult group?

: I have a copy of Stuart Wright's book about Waco and have read it. Like
: the Reavis book you previously mentioned it largely ignores the central
: facts/issues about Waco and the obvious destructive cult pattern that
: was evident.

I have not ever mentioned Wrights book which
was a collection of essays by academic folks of the
federal handling of the seige. I am quoting
from his paper for which all the data for finding
it were given in my last post.

: Mr. Wright is certainly entitled to his opinion, but I
: don't think it will be taken that seriously as a scholarly and/or
: historical perspective by most historians looking back in the future.

I disagree. I feel that the Waco case will
be the historical blade that will sever the members
of the Cult of the Glass Teet, from those human
beings who still have hearts, brains, tolerance,
ideals of Justice, and the recognition that something-is-missing
when our authorities disgorge rivers of lies at the
scene of eighty dead bodies.
The Cult of the Glass Teet is strong and numerous, but
like the Canaanites before them, a few determined
and desert-hardened believers in Truth, or the Diety
that looks out for them, can see to it that future
generations will look at Waco as the massacre it truly was
- sophists such as yourself notwithstanding.

: Another "Jonestown" simply refers to the group's structure--an absolute
: authoritarian cult leader like David Koresh, who in this sense, matches
: the power and position held by Jim Jones over his group.

By authoritarian, would that be like, getting an
order that one could/should shoot to kill an adult
and then DOING SO in contravention of every rule
of engagement ever given a law enforcement officer?
Would committing a murder at the orders of your boss,
or simply defying everything you know as a psychologist
who was forced to change and his staff's advice to
his FBI handlers to justify tactics that most certainly
resulted in the predicted and fatal tregedy - would
not such examples be more than typical of an authoritarian
CULT and the most deadly and serious crimes that
can be committed by such a CULT? If I am
right, and I think I am, there is little difference
besides quantity that seperates Waco from Warsaw. Same
gig, same date, same consequences of Cult behavior.
The only difference is the Nazis lost which
makes it possible for us to examine and deconstruct
the events that led to the crimes. Had they won, we would
probably have never known about the holocaust. We would
believe something like: "The Jews moved into a ghetto
and committed suicide through their poor sanitation
practices."
Had they won, I would not be writing. As a pole,
I would have either been an agricultural slave, forced
laborer or, had I been at all educated, I would have
been killed along with the Jews.
The FBI, the Feds, the whore-media all still
possess the "Majesty of the State" which immunizes
them from inquiry and makes anything they do appear
to be OK in the eyes of undiscerning, brainwashed
and hypocritical members of the Cult of the Glass
Teet.

But, I wish to go further. I have dipped into
my files and have found the most hostile witness
I could find to speak to the issue of "the power
and position" you allege Koresh to have held over
his group. David Bunds, whose correspondence convinces
me that Koresh should have been arrested and tried
for Stat. rape, wrote this on the subject of Koreshes
mind-control or brainwashing:

********

Part 3 - David Bunds to John Mann 6th July 1999

John, Yes, you may use my e-mail. I have no problem with that.

I will give your e-mail a more substantial answer when I have more time. Thank you for your response.

I will briefly discuss brainwashing. First let us define what it is.

brainwashing: a process of systematically, forcibly and intensively indoctrinating a person to destroy or weaken his
beliefs and ideas, so that he becomes willing to accept different or opposite beliefs and ideas.

This is an extremely complex subject. Some of the things that the definition describes were going on.
Indoctrination was definitely an every day occurrence and it was more or less systematic. More on some days, less on
others. A lot more as his message matured and developed over the years. It was not forced however. You were pretty
much free to leave at any time. However when it was going on it could be very intense and very long. Some of his
studies could last 12 hours.

As for destroying beliefs and ideas, as far as I can tell, a typical follower of Koresh already had certain beliefs
and ideas that Koresh would use and capitalize on, i.e. a fear and respect of the bible, basic beliefs in God,
uncertainty about their own salvation and the future in general, etc.

So in conclusion I will say that according to this definition that brainwashing was not occuring while I was there.
I do not consider myself to have been brainwashed.

As to whether or not they were accepting arguments from scripture that is also a complex subject. Koresh was an
extremely complex man and fully understanding his bible teachings is not easy. He did use scare tactics and fear in
addition to arguments from the bible when preaching to people whether followers or not. I will discuss this subject
with you further in a future e-mail.

Thank you.

David Bunds

***********

As such a
: leader David Koresh was responsible for the deaths of his people, not
: unlike Jim Jones or Marshall Applewhite.

The only way one could make Koresh responsible
for what happened is to hiide the fact that he did
the right thing in the beginning of the Feb 28th raid:
He came out with his hands empty and open trying to
speak with his attackers. And the testimony of Ballesteros,
the memo of Prosecutor Johnston ordering a stop
to the shooting review, the missing BATF video tapes
of those critical frist minutes, the missing front
door, and the continued mishandling of evidence all
convince me that Koresh did come to the front door
peacefully trying to talk.
There is nothing yet presented that overcomes
the apparent weight of these details in establishing
the reasonable behavior of Koresh in those first minutes.

The Waco Jury, in spite of having been preselected
by Judge Smith as likely convictors, misled by Judge
Smith by selective allowance for presentation of evidence
supportive of the self-defense argument, and finally misled
by Judge Smith regarding their historical, Constitutional
and continually re-established rights to disobey his
instructions to them regarding their roles as Jurors,

...STILL found that Koresh and the Davidians acted
in Just self defense after adequate provocation and
application of excessive force.

Are you getting any of this Rick? Can it sink in?
Are you processing this as a ranking and credentialed
member of your Cult, or are you able to see that Koresh
could not be responsible for the murderous OR stupid OR
illegal actions of feds who went ahead and attacked
EVEN AFTER they knew that he knew they were coming?

If someone says there car has 30,000 miles on it
and I find it has 175,000 miles, I will not attribute
the diference to a single, or series of round-off
errors. I am similarly compelled by the gross tonnage
of what some people consider "mistakes" to suggest
that they were not mistakes but were features engineered
to enable a certain dirty deed, and then to serve
as a disguise for the murder.
The further evidence for such engineering and
malice-aforethought is the presence of an IR Video
camera flying around the day of the fire and the
calls to area burn-units at 5:00 or 6:00 a.m. the
morning of the fire.... Why are these so relevant?
Because, I do not accept that people making such a
long series of mistakes are also telepathic enough
to arrange such things without consciously knowing
what is going to happen.

: Again, here are the central issues your email again appears to factually
: ignore:

: 1. Koresh broke the law and was rightfully served with a warrant.

: 2. Koresh and the Davidians resisted arrest by the legal authorities.

The Cultist must have missed my response or
hallucinated its disappearance. I repost it again
hoping he can see it this time and answer it.

Ask the Cultist what the evidence is that Koresh
broke the law? Ask him what the penalty would have been
had he been found guilty of said violation. Ask him
what is meant by the Constitutional prohibition
against cruel or unusual punishment?
Ask him if a warrant that is defective is, of itself,
just grounds for resisting its execution? Ask him
if the warrant he implies was served, was a warrant
for a "knock and announce" warrant service, or for
a "dynamic entry." Ask him if such distinctions
hold any meaning to believers in the Cult of the Glass Teet?

Ask him if any of the following quotations
dealing with self-defense have any meaning to members
of his cult:

"When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a
right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating,
repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of
self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justiciable."

--RUNYAN v. STATE, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

"These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make
an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof
by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private
individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence."

--JONES v. STATE, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex.
App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation,
or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory,
Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any
rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the
Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different
punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an
alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the
punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the
acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include
the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon,
explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not
more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts
committed in violation of this section or if such acts include
kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an
attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill,
shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years
or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

--United States Code Title 18, Chapter 13, Section 242.
(Does it sound to you like this was written with foreknowledge
of the details of the Waco event?)

********************************************************************

The conduct of our nations affairs always demands that public
servants discharge their duties under the Constitution and laws
of this Republic with fairness and a proper spirit of subservience
to the people whom they are sworn to serve. Public servants cannot
be arbitrarily selective in their treatment of citizens, dispensing
equity to those who please them and withholding it from those who
do not. Respect for the law can only be fostered if citizens believe
that those responsible for implementing and enforcing the law are
themselves acting in conformity with the law.

- William F. Downes, United States District Judge
Carol Ward v. United States
79 AFTR2d Par. 97-964 No. 95-WY-810-WD (2 Jun 1997)

: 3. Koresh had 51 days to come out, but refused.

See article by Dr. Stuart Wright. The abstract
of the contents of the article is pasted in this
message. Ask the Cultist to read this material.
The particular cultist (Ross) may be reluctant
to do so since it was written by a person who acquired
his expertise the hard way, rather than through a
simple self-declaration such as "Hi. I'm Rick
Ross, qualified Cultist Deprogrammer, and certified
as such by the Cult of the Glass Teet!"

And here again is the article mentioned:

Anatomy of a Government Massacre:

Abuses of Hostage-Barricade Protocols During the Waco Standoff

Dr. Stuart A. Wright Lamar University

Dept. of Sociology

P.O. Box 10026

Beaumont, Texas 77710

Excerpt of Abstract:

...The violations do not appear to be random, incidental or the result of disorganization, as officials claim. The
data indicate that the FBI's on-scene commanders and tactical components of the Hostage_Rescue Team (HRT) contributed
largely to the failed negotiations through methods of increased tactical pressure and psychological warfare providing
the justification for the high-risk assault. The thesis is advanced that the HRT command may have pursued furtively what
some insiders call a "western" view of hastage-barricade incidents - i.e., that negotiations should be used as a means
of manipulating people into positions where a tectical solution can be executed. In this context, the standoff is
analyzed as a government massacre. Possible motives for this state of violence are linked to the sect's defiant
posture, aspects of police culture, effective demonization of the sect, and the disturbing trend of "militarization"
within law enforcement.

This paper has been published in the Journal of Terrorism and Political Violence. ISSN 0954-6553

A Frank Cass Journal

Frank Cass, c/o ISBS 5804 NE Hassalo Street Portland, Oregon 97213

Tel. 1 800 944 6190

fax 503 280 8832

email: jnls@isbs.com

**************************************************

: 4. Koresh set the fire and murdered his own people.

Ask the Cultist if any tapes can establish these
claims? Ask the cultist if the providers of such tapes,
should they ever be presented as real artifacts, have ever
manufactured, corrupted or faked any such evidence
before? Ask him if the FBi has ever released a severely
butchered audio tape and claimed it was a genuine,
first generation, authentic duplicate of the real
thing? Ask him if he has ever heard of anyone
named Frederick Whitehurst who is reported
to have escaped from the pantheon of the CofGT
with his honor and integrity intact - not to mention
a considerable cash settlement?

And yet again, I paste this since Ross
is having psychopathological hallucinations
and delusions regarding the integrity of the
sources of information his Cult is based
on....

********

> FBI transmitters picked up voices of compound occupants discussing
>pouring fuel and setting fires throughout that morning.

*********

: What you seem instead to offer, rather than a meaningful response to
: these points--is essentially rationalizations and/or obfuscation.

I would really enjoy anyone diligent or crazy
enough to have followed this dialogue to reply
stating who was offering meaningful responses, and
who was falling back on tired-out rationalizations
or obfuscations?

: Also, I note you again really have offered no meaningful explanation
: regarding the audio recordings of Davidians planning and executing the
: fire e.g. Koresh and Scheider.

OK. Here is more on those points.

The details of the negotiation record, the memoes
of Pete Smerick, the correct prediction of Vic Feazell
(a McLennan County Prosecutor) that the feds were preparing
to kill the Davidians, the reams of missing or destroyed
evidences and finally the thermal IR images of gunfire
at the rear of the buildings where Press cameras could not
see all establish, beyond my reasonable level of doubt,
that the feds may have committed cold-blooded murder.

And once I can accept that they may have committed
murder, I can easily accept they may create, or massauge
data in the attempt to prove it.
Murder is harder than lies. Therefore, once
murder is seen or suspected, lies would not be in
anyway hard to accept.

**********

once again:

> FBI transmitters picked up voices of compound occupants discussing
>pouring fuel and setting fires throughout that morning.

******************

The revelation of the tapes of such recordings,
will solve one problem for the feds, while igniting
the one that I predict will ultimately prove
the murders I allege happened. If those tapes exist,
the will frame the context of the day of April
19th against a set of facts that will show the feds
had used the situation itself as a means to engineer
the suicides they allege and therefore to establish
that they committed murder by driving the event
toward a suicide IN PRECISE fulfillment of the
predictions and warnings of their own psychological
advisors.

And even IF it can be shown the Davidians
lit any fires, (and I will not presume so until
the hard evidence is produced and shown to be free
of editting or ExNihilo manufacture by the feds)
the thermal images of the machine-gun fire at the
rear of the buildings is EVIDENCE the feds
had murderous malice towards the beseiged folks
and were acting out that murderous malice.

As a Juror, I would listen to any argument
that "The Davidians started it" in the context
of the analogous claims made regarding the Feb 28th
raid and I would certainly find such claims
to be the same type of self-serving, and unconvincing
arguments. I would think of the calls to area
burn units and the presence of the IR Thermal imager
as evidence of malice-aforethought, premeditation,
and solid evidence that what happened was what was
PLANNED to have happened.
As a Juror, it would be tough to present enough
evidence so as to make me rule the feds were
not guilty regardless of the audio tapes. For they
were culpable one way or another for the diaster
at every stage of the event and Koreshes pedophilia
merely made him an inviting target that would
present minimal chances of any significant public
objection to the destruction of his church and
flock.

I would also, as a Juror, consider the following
statements of Byron Sage from the Washington Post:

************

The FBI's use of flash-bangs was disclosed in a 1993 Justice Department report and later House
hearings.

Critics of the FBI's handling of the siege argue the use of flash-bangs encouraged the Davidians to
remain inside the compound, where most of them ultimately died during the final assault.

Sage and others said the Davidians had the opportunity to come out if they were prepared to surrender
but that they could not allow them to exit at will. "The use of the flash-bangs was to drive them back
inside," Sage said. "It had to be a well-orchestrated and planned exit," so nobody perceived their exit
as an attack.

***********

I would consider that the FBI had created a Labyrinth
of circumstances that they theselves made impossible for
Koresh and the Davidians to have fulfilled. The tanks
cut the phone lines early in the morning. The observers
of the Davidians lied about the circumstances. Sage
mkase up rules concerning conditions of egress that
would have required negotiation to establish, and yet
the feds move forward with an assault that gives the
Davidians no ARRANGED or ARANGEABLE means of escape
that would make them immune from the flashbangs the FBI
admits or the machine-gun fire they have not yet admitted....

The creation of this "conditional labyrinth" will
no doubt be cited by Ross and other Cultists of the Glass
Teet as "another simple mistake." "Oh Schucks. Were
Really sorry about that." But I see it as yet
another evidence that the folks were set up in a
slaughter house situation wherein the intended
result was acheived.

I see the ONLY logical escape from this conclusion
to be a string of mistakes that are so ingenious,
so sustained, so mono-directional, so effective
at reaching a conclusion of massacre, that IF
we accept such mistakes, we must take the steps
to destroy the agency that made them to simply
assure that they can never happen again.
The result acheived was so far from the stated
goal of reaching a peaceful solution, that it would
be like a person claiming after getting a PhD.
in physics, that it ws all a mistake and they
he meant all along to be a Botanist. For the pattern
of the alleged mistakes is about as detailed,
persistent and continuous as the sequence of classes
a person needs to take over years to reach a degree
in either Botany or Physics.
For the Graduate to claim that he made
such a long series of mistakes that would be
evident ot him each and every time he selected
a course, or attended a class, strains the
credibility so far beyond the breaking point that
the Jurors would probably need to be sprayed
with firehouses to cool them off.

: Granted, that the Davidians now in prison were not convicted of
: "murder." However, it is important to note that they were held
: responsible for the deaths of the federal agents as evidenced by the
: fact that "six Branch Davidians were ordered to pay fines and $1.3
: million in restitution to the slain agents' families and the government"
: see http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco21.html

Had the Jury known what the Judge would do in sentencing
them, and had they been given historically and Constitutionally
correct instruction regarding their roles as Jurors,
there would have been NO SUCH finding. Call Sarah Bain
yourself and ask her.

: ...even if the BATF and FBI had listened to advice such as
: mine--it seems doubtful that Koresh ever would have surrendered
: willingly. Rather, he would have insisted (like Jim Jones and Marshall
: Applewhite) upon controlling his people and only ending that control on
: his own terms i.e. their deaths.

This is at complete odds with the facts the FBI
has been so sucessful at hiding: Koresh made a
promise on the 14th to come out. He was working toward
that conclusion and the FBI knew it. They had audio
tapes of him dictating his "Seven Seals" thingy and they
not only hid that from Reno, they told her that
"babies were being beaten."
They thus took a fact of progress and transformed
it through the Cult machinery of massacre engineering
into evidence precisely crafted to prevent the peaceful
resolution the FBI claims they were seeking.

Again, I do not accept this as a mistake. If
you accept it as a mistake, I think you are very
strongly deluded.

: This is the sad reality of Waco. In this sense the government was
: actually impotent. That is, they could not control the outcome--only
: Koresh could.

I think that any rational person reading our exchange
may conclude the exact opposite. I hope they will thus
conclude. And I hope that one day, the Waco event
is thoroughly known to citizens that it results in a
permanent, habitual, and intellectually rigorous distrust
of government and media sufficient to forever prevent the
massacres and the subsequent mass delusions created in the
cover-ups of those massacres.

: The personal attacks on me are somewhat telling i.e. when people can't
: defend their position factually and logically they often resort to this
: e.g. dismissing under some general label such as the Cult of the Glass
: Teet."

I wrote pages of text, filled with quotations,
written to answer your points one-by-one and you
reply by repeating over and over that I refused
to deal with the facts....

You call yourself an expert on Cults and define
various conditions you allege are indicators of a
Cult-like delusion or misapprehension of reality.
Then, you forge ahead and illustrate all the same
irrationalities, dependencies on other's dogmas,
phrases or classifications (such as Jonestown) that
are not parts of classes UNLESS those classes encompass
groups such as the FBI and BATF.
You ignore every element that correctly places
responsibility on the Government. You are blind to
the enormity of the revealed cover-up. You have no
apparent grasp of the reality of incinerated Children
would need not have been incinerated. You take a
situation that my 7 year-old daughter could probably
have negotiated to a life-saving conclusion, and expect
everyone else to believe the results were accidental.

I do not say this to merely call you a name. I do not
say this to attempt to hurt you. And I fully
recognize it may harden you in your steadfast
defense of the Cult world view you live under.
I think you are as deluded as any other
cultist you may have attempted to help.

Show me any cult that has killed as many people
as the FBI managed to kill at Waco.... Show me
how Koresh himself or any of his troups had ever
been as destructive to life as the FBI and its miraculous,
murderous, magnificent, mistake machine was.
Explain the thermal images to me and tell me
again that they really are not gunfire.... Tell
us this while there is still time since the day is
rapidly coming when the FBI itself will be forced
to concede that the images are, and always have been,
gunfire directed at the church.
Then, begin thinking of the wording you will
use to spin these bullets directed at the last exits
of a burning building into another credible tale
of mistakes....

: Please understand that unlike the email author I was directly involved
: with the Waco situation and my observations are first hand.

: Rick Ross
: http://www.rickross.com

The folks who were shooting at the Davidians
were there. RCooke, a BATF'er says he was there
too. Yet he also claims that the shooting visible
on the Thermal image video did not happen. Steven
Barry, a former Delta Force officer says that Delta
was there, active and with orders to take down the
Davidians. CIA employee Gene Cullen says that
Delta operators also told him they were there
and involved.

It appears that one can be a Federal Government
Cultist or apologist from just about any distance
or profession and that "first-hand" experience
does not necessarily prevent a person from
Cultic delusions such as yours.

The audio tapes that I dare the feds to release
are the tapes of the Children screaming as the fire
encroaches. That might startle enough sanity into
even a confirmed Cultist like yourself to start
paying attention to all the evidences that show
the feds engineering the crisis that killed them.

And lest you call me a hypocrite, I must admit that
I am a cultist too. I am a believer in Jesus Christ
whose belief becomes every more important as each new lie
about Waco is revealed. I accept that he was who he said
and that someday he will return. If any details
of my faith place me into categories of any sort,
bug deal. If truth demands that I defend Koresh
for some truth I thought he spoke, fine. If Charles
Manson became a vocal proponent of Calculus, I would
have to remain also a proponent of it. Each and every
detail must permit scrutiny and we must resist the urge
to buy the classifictions the Glass Teet encourages
use to accept so that they can lead us around with
catch phrases designed to make us think we are informed
when we are really stupid.

Discernment is thus the "valor" that is called
for. And the media MUST begin to inform that discernment
or the media shall bear much blame for the historical
result.

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of society but
the people themselves, and if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to
take it from them, but to inform their discretion."

--Thomas Jefferson