From: Fred Mrozek on October 17, 1999 at 18:06:32:
In Reply to: Rick Ross: raross@home.com. October 17, 1999 at 7:49:53

Sharlene,

Thanks for forwarding this exchange. Rick's
argument finally collapses into "my-expert versus
your expert" without going into the actual material.
He seems to think the brainwashing issue can somehow
ammeliorate responsibility for the mass death. he totally
ignores Stuart Wrights material since it is so
completely obvious that the feds were systematically
pursuing a strategy to inflame the situation rather
than end it peacefully.
The last point is certainly the most important.
In my posts I have tried in my clumsy, first draft,
way to convey the layers of alleged mistakes that
suddenly make perfect sense if viewed as anything
but mistakes. The illustration I give about the
Hostage/Barricade protocol violations (over 20
seperate categories of violation and hundreds
of actual implementations of the violations)
dovetails with many, many other circumstantial
evidences of malice.
The Smerick memoes, passing up an invitation
to visit, dealing dishonestly with Koresh, then
telling the public Koresh is dealing dishonestly...
The destruction of evidences favorable to the Davidians
and possibly or potentially damaging to the feds.
The Lie of silence on Koreshes promise of April
14th to come out when Reno asked if there was hope.
The Lie of silence in not telling Reno that they
had audio of Koresh dictating his seals doc. to Ruth
Riddle - the Lie that YES, they knew Koresh was keeping
this promise...
The DOUBLE STRENGTH, Life-sentence or Chair deserving
LIE of telling her, after all the above LIES that
babies were being beaten!!! - to get her to approve
a raid that she was reluctant to approve. This LIE
ought to be considered a pivotal indication of the malice
of the feds. They wanted to stage a raid that was
not necessary unless their motives were, as the Davidians
predicted, to destroy the sect and the buildings...
The FBI repeatedly asserted "they had all the time
in the world", and "we are here for as long as it takes
to reach a peaceful solution" and furthermore went on
telling the Davidans attorneys and the Press that
the negotiations were open-ended right up to the
last day before the raid of the 19th.
The evidence is such that I could NEVER bring myself
to accept that the feds actually wanted the folks
to walk out of those buildings and for those buildings
to survive. Never.
If Ross wants me to accept that they did want
a peaceful solution, he better start dealing with
all the turns for aggression, all the lies, all the
violations of time-tested, universally taught, life-saving,
child-sparing Hostage barricade protocols that were
turned inside out on the way to a massacre.
He better deal with the evidences of detailed
government foreknowledge of the fire - the calls
to the Hospital 5:00 am of the 19th, and the presence
of a Thermal IR imager that arrived no earlier than
April 18th.

Again, Ross pulls authority on the subject
of the IR images of gunfire at the Davidians. This
week, I have it on some significant authority myself,
that Ross's expert have crumbled and are going on
ABC TV to admit the IR imagers show gunfire.
Ross will then have to deal with these facts:
22 or so bodies with bullets wounds are found at precisely
the locations towards which those weapons are being fired.
The fires originate at the precise locations
where the tanks have been active and those tanks
go careening away from those locations as the
fires break out... only to return later. (They
were not afraid of the fires, they were trying
to dissociate themselves from the origins of the
fires BEFORE they could have seen them. This means
they knew they were about to break out...)

And if Ross alleges the Davidians were staring
fires themselves to thwart the tank assualt, he must
explain why the very first fire is seen within
the second floor at the extreme upwind corner
of the building. No one would try to harm something
with a fire set 8 feet above something. Noone puts
the hotdogs on the bottom and the coals up on the grate.
On the other hand, if one were trying to torch
the whole structure one WOULD set the blaze at that
upwind location..... then split as fast as one could
to avoid the appearance of association with the outbreaks.
And the time coincidence is striking as both tanks
depart from locations seconds before the fires and
one of the tanks is seen, from its exhaust plume to be
fleeing with pedal to the medal - continuous, full throttle
away from structures.

Ross has avoided answer my questions about definitions
of cult characteristics as they might be applied to
FBI or BATF staffer ordered to lie, demonize, spin,
destroy evidence or even kill. He refuses to see the
possibility that his unquestioning acceptance of FBI
innocence in the matter is cult-like. He refuses to accept
that the loyalty a soldier or police officer may develop
toward his bretheren may overwhelm their loyalty
to their oaths, to their morality, to their basic
human obligations to protect the lifes of innocent women,
children and yes, even adult, caucasian males who had not
yet been tried and convicted of anything.

Once again, I think Ross has proven himself unqualified
to call himself an expert on Cults unless and until
he can show us how the BATF, FBI or Delta operators
who attacked, tortured and eventually killed the Branch
Davidians at Waco - were not themselves the blind, brainwashed,
"honed! Honed to the Kill" ninja Cultists they appeared
to be.

The Davidians were not made vulnerable by the
actual crimes or alleged crimes of Koresh. He could have
been arrested elsewhere, tried and convicted of statutory
rape. And knowing Judge Smith as now know him, Koresh
would have never seen the light of day from outside
a prison yard.
They were made vulnerable because an assualt on the
Constitutional Rights of a huge population will
not begin at the location where an attack would involve
damage to a popular and politically correct group.
Had the Davidians had a Whale in their pond, Snail
Darters in their creek, an abortion clinic on the
premises, a Sierra Club meeting on their site, a member
of the Archer-Daniels-Midland company on their Board,
and a few radical, lesbian feminists with grants
for Performance Art from the NEA, THEY could NEVER
have been attacked they way they were. The hypocrisy
would have been too great for even Network TV
to Spin-corrected. The cattle would have noticed,
perked up and expected the TV, teleprompter zombies
to actually DO SOMETHING!

The convicts in the Ohio Prison Riots had been'convicted
of real crimes, had lost their Const. right and were
still treated to textbook Hostage barricade seige rules.
John Wayne Gacy killed dozens of kids and he still
got a trial.
Ted K., the Unabomber, was a Left-Wing terrorist. Pure
and simple. (Left-Wing-Terrorist, a phrase that the eastern
establishment could never bring themselves to conceive,
or pronounce.) Ted. killed people. Yet he still got
a trial.
Stacy Keach, Johnny Mathis, Jerry Lee Lewis,
and perhaps Micheal Jackson were either known
or suspected of having Koresh-like predilections
yet none of them were ever served up a dynamic
entry....
Back-woods Mormons to this day wear sacred
underwear, practice polygamy, own guns, and attend
churches in vast droves...

The Mormons are too numerous, staff too many
CIA offices, own too many hotels, and are generally
too well armed.

Sexual Perversion seems to be the Goal
of all broadcast media and the only basis it will
ever posit for support of first amendment.

Whales, snails and owls are more precious
than infant humans.

Abortions are more sacred than children.

There is no such thing a left-wing terrorist.

John Wayne Gacy was not a religious nut.

Micheal Jackson rakes in hundreds of millions
for Time-Warner.

And even prison inmates are viewed as superior
forms of life to:

Religious folks, with endtime beliefs, who
practice free-speech, gun-ownership, storage of
foods, and who regard the US as a possible malevolent
force in the fulfillment of end-time bible prophecies...
THESE seem to have been the demographic group that
needed to be beaten down, intimidated, put-in-their-place,
tortured, abused, slandered, associated with Child
molester, and finally slaughtered on national TV
to show the world who is boss.
This demographic group is so scary to Washington
D.C. that only it seemed a suitable enemy to occupy
the old dirty trick agencies growing bored in the Devils
workshop of post-cold-war idle hands.
(The only other possibility is that Clinton
viewed Koresh as his professional competition. Think
about it...)

The sexual irregularities of Koresh and his group
were only the factors that made an attack on him
a safe bet since none of the power trusts in society
would be willing to soil themselves by defense of
the Constitution - in a case that had Koresh at the
center of it.
So, the dark one in Washington, whose hatred
and contempt for the Constitution roles off his pen
with each new executive order probably felt it was safe
to rip the guts out of the Bill of Right starting
right there at Waco. Any opposition that would arise
would be weakened by fear of association.
And now, the target demographic group would KNOW
FOR SURE that the Bill of Rights was only a piece
of paper and that precedents for "suiciding" troublesome
religious groups using tanks, machine-guns, Internationally
banned CS gas, and elite anti-terrorist forces had been
established as the REAL, OPERATIVE law of the land.

But surely, I digress!

Demand this of Ross:

What exactly, is a dangerous cult?

How does the manifest behavior of the BATF,
FBI and, say, the Los Angeles Police Dept. differ
from a cult?

If Koresh had been a female in Borneo, marrying
youngs males, taking care of them, making babies
and taking care of them, and making and manufacturing
really nifty blow-guns for neighboring tribes, would
it have been a dangerous cult, or an interesting
article in National Geographic?
Would it have been a sin or noble deed had
elite teams of highly armed missionaries descend
into the Borneo jungle (three weeks before their
fund drives) and began an attack on this women
and her tribe?
What if the missionaries ended up killing all these
tribes people? What if IR imagers caught the gunfire?
What if these missionaries claimed the tribists
shot first, were heavily armed with blow-guns,
and were headed by a dangerous, women cultist?

Would you buy it Rick? Am I getting through?

If you do, YOU are a cultist. If you do, YOU
are a dangerous sort of person to be allowed to
give expert testimony concerning the religious
behavior of other folks. If you do, you have built
philosophical castles in the air of this late 20th Century
American CULTure and have edified our current
values (or lack thereof into IRON-CLAD articles of
doctrine of the Cult of the Glass Teet.

If I were an alien civilisation a few dozen light
years away, i would begin preparing an extermination
detail to head to Earth IF it was observed that
your sort of certitude regarding the elimination
of the Davidians became the certitude of all of Western
culture as it engulfs planet Earth and prepares
to leap into space.
Indeed, no one is safe. If you Ross cannot define
what a dangerous Cult is, and yet approve of the
routine extermination of one with tank-assisted
suicide, than you could not possibly define what
that standard could possibly after yet another
20 (200, 2000) or so years of Hollywood and network TV
redefinition of what left and right, up and down, male
and female, or good and evil are. All those things
are infinitely flexible over the long run and if the
aliens cannot predict whether they will meet your standards
or the 36th century counterparts, how could they
feel safe?
You, Mr. Ross, are the Borg. And there may be
very powerful aliens somewhere out there listening
who may decide that they DO NOT want to be absorbed.

For my part, I think the Kingdom of Heaven
is up there, listening and watching. I think
Jesus is who he said, and is the measure of our
thoughts and deeds. I think he is the gate to our
access to that kingdom. And I think that it is
the Cult of the Glass Teet that will be absorbed
by that Kingdom and not the other way around.

Your Cult rationalizes the death of all those
kids, and mine demands to know why? Yours destroys,
hides, spins, tampers and misinterprets evidence
while ours cries out for it to be revealed WHOLE.
Your Cult is the dominant force on Earth today,
but mine predicts the meek shall inherit the earth.
Your Cult seems particularly fearful that some
little group will spring up somewhere and encourage
someone to try something, think something, write something
that Rick Ross cannot approve or encompass.
Your Cult takes what is apparently the murder of
such a group and INSTANTLY calls it suicide with
no consideration of evidence to the contrary.
My (personal) cult, thinks that people like you
are the real enemy, the real mountain that must be thrown
down and that the folks who planned and executed the
raid are the ones who should be tried and placed
in prison.

Koresh had cooperated in every previous investigation.
He called Harwell for advice on what things were legal or illegal.
Former Prosecutor Feazell said that he and the Davidians
were strange but friendly and reasonable - that all
they had to do was call them down and they would have
come.
Feazell also predicted to the Houston Chronicle
on March 2nd, 1993 that the feds were preparing to kill
them. Everything I have written should guide you
to the conclusion that every stage of the subsequent
events recorded evidence of the feds doing exactly,
precisely as Feazell had predicted. And a few hours before'
the fire on April 19th, Joyce Sparks, the social
worker who investigated Koresh, concluded that the
feds were about to kill them all.
You can cite all the authorities you want, and the
evidences, fairly, painstakingly considered, will
eventually grind them all to powder.

Fred

Cultist of Jesus Christ with no futher
credentials.