~Waco Tragedy News Exclusive~
07/22/00

Interview with Mt. Carmel fire survivor David Thibodeau
(Transcribed from an audio taped interview 07/10/2000 while in Austin, TX.)

Sharlene Shappart- Waco Tragedy News:

WTN: "I understand that you're going to be doing the Geraldo show
tomorrow here in Austin...."

David: "Yeah, there's supposed to be Dick DeGuerin and myself.
On the other side, Clint Van Zandt and Julian Epstein from the
Justice Department. Kind of a funny term if you think about it."

WTN: "Yeah, it’s kind of an oxymoron."
(Editor’s note: Van Zandt is an FBI negotiator and Epstein serves as Democrat
Counsel to the House Judiciary Committee)

David: "I'm sure they're going to want to talk about the case and the
trial and all the great things the government has uncovered about what the Davidians
have done. So the only points we're going to have to bring up consistently is
the fact that we're not allowed to enter the majority of our case into the
public record, because the judge refuses to have that information entered into
that public record or the current court system. So, I don't see how we can get
not only a fair trial, but any kind of justice at all because all the
information is so powerful and intense concerning the CS gas, methylene
chloride and of course the FLIR infra red tape, that we can't use."

WTN: "I understand that Mike McNulty was saying that there are five
different investigators or researchers for the FLIR that have ended up
dead or with strokes"

David: "There's five, but I can't name the names right now because I'm
looking into exactly who they are. I know there's Edward Allard who had a
stroke. One of the guys that did the analysis on the sunlight reflections, Maurice Cox..."

WTN: "I believe one of them was named Zeigler...."

David: "Yeah, I think he's one of the guys."

WTN: "Then there was Carlos Ghigliotty... he's dead."

David: "Yeah, he's dead too. It's all quite convenient. There's a few
more left we haven't mentioned still."

WTN: "Do you think that the government would be willing to discuss any of
those experts and what happened to them on the Geraldo show tomorrow?"

David: "Yeah.... I don't think they'll.... no, they definitely won't
bring that up. It'll have to be up to us to bring it up and whether they'll
have comments or not I'm sure the government will be, "Well, that's quite the
coincidence."

WTN: "What are the points that you think you'll bring up tomorrow? The
most important and maybe up to date things that you've learned through the
trial."

David: "I'd like people to know that some of the pyrotechnic devices were
found with debris that indicates they were shot through a building. Which
is unlike what the government has said in the past.... which was the
pyrotechnic devices never passed through the building at all."

WTN: "Yeah, I believe they said they 'bounced off' and were 'inert' at
that point."

David: "I intend on reminding people about the fact that the ATF were sooo
worried about David Koresh and he was such a 'recluse', how come he went
into town all the time? How come they went over to fire on his firing range
and the ATF undercover guy, Rodriquez, gave Koresh his firearm so they could
shoot together? That's another fact.

"I look at it like this... there's a big mountain in front of me. The
mountain is the governments story.... and as you take a little pick ax
and you start to chip away at that mountain, with each chip that falls off
there's something called fact. And when you start to chip off all the so
called "facts," the governments mountain becomes a small little hill.
It's just a matter of all the people wanting to know enough to chip away those "facts".
The problem is the complacency of the American public. We don't want to rock the boat,
we're taught to BE complacent and the truth of the matter is....it's a big part
of the problem."

WTN: "I think so too, David.
"I think just the fact that you've chosen to work so hard by speaking
out and trying to educate people... I mean, I know this is probably stressful to
you in your life. Some people may believe this is all you do, or have time to
do, but of course you have a life of your own. I'm sure all of this gets
to be extremely hard and I think you've done a wonderful job.
"You've flown all over this country giving talks about this... where is
the last place you spoke?"

David: "I was at the Anaheim Marriott for the Libertarian National
Convention and that was an incredible experience. There are a lot of
people out there that do want to know what's going on and they want change.
They don't want the government to be overstepping their bounds like they have
been ever since this started. Even before this started. They don't want to see
a police state in this country. They want to see separation of school and
state, which I think is a very good idea. The dumbing down of our
children has got to stop."

"It's time to turn off Jerry Springer and read the Constitution and
realize what this country is all about. The fact that we just want to be
entertained all the time is one of the reasons we allow our rights to be taken away
from us. We think we're still living in freedom because we have all these
wonderful things that other countries and nations don't have. We lose sight of our
patriotism. We lose sight of who we are as a country and who we are as a
people. That is the first step to doing away with our way of life as we
know it. I think it's a horrible thing. I think history has repeated itself
several times.

"It's no different what happened in Waco, than when Senator Henry Clay
said in 1893, ‘The devices of power and it's minions are the same in all
countries and in all ages. First it marks it's victim, denounces it, excites the
public hatred to conceal its own abuses and encroachments.‘
That's exactly what's happened.
Because of the demonization they could do on Koresh and the people there, everyone
thinks they're evil and the government is good.
Like George Orwell's ‘Animal Farm’- ‘Two legs bad, four legs good.‘
Ya know, it's all you heard was ‘Branch Davidians bad, Federal government good.’

"The truth of the matter is, the only reason I continue doing this.....
Ya know, you're right I don't like doing this. I don't like getting up on
stage and denouncing my government and telling people what they've done,
because it hurts me inside to do that. I still believe in America and
this country and the principals we were founded on. But if I don't, we're
totally going to lose out. If people don't..."

"Ya know, I'm just a small little speck of a person in all of this.
There's a lot of other great people who should be stepping up and carrying the
banner. "Ya know, whether David Koresh was right or wrong, whether the federal
government was right or wrong... it's always going to be a controversy as
to who set the fires. We know for a fact that people were shot trying to
exit the building. We know the CS gas they used and the methylene chloride
they used was a lulling agent that put people to sleep, into paralysis, into a
coma, and then death.
And they wonder why no one came out the back of the building!"

"Well ya know, we have the evidence, we have the reasons. We could fight
this in court if we could get a judge that wasn't the government boy and
had some testosterone to just lay the damn cards on the table, but he won't
do it. He won’t do it! They won't do it! They don't want to be exposed, they're
not going to be exposed, they're too freaking powerful! "

"And ya know, it's time to start breaking down some of that oppression
and crap that keeps us in this with our blinders on walking through life
trusting in the government who we know has lied to us. The FBI has lied to us
consistently... most people realize that and know it... but they're not
willing to do anything about it. It's time to grow some huevos people...
that's all I've got to say."

WTN: "Absolutely! People need to wake up, they need to get a wake up call
and I think everything that you're doing has given a lot of people a wake
up call they wouldn't have had otherwise. I see what you do is extremely
stressful and a lot of time away from work. A lot of time spent away from
your beautiful daughter, whom I've had the pleasure of meeting and
playing with. What you do David is very important. Like I've said before,
you're to be commended for standing up and you've done one hell of a job."

David: "Well it just makes you wonder if it's all worth while... because
you see the amount of the corruption and you feel there's really nothing you
can do. But if everyone felt there was nothing you could do, then nothing
would get done at all. You gotta listen to the examples like the Ghandi's, the
people... the few in the world who changed their nations, they saved
their countries. All because of a peaceful vision."

WTN: "Thank you David for talking with me today."

David: "Thanks a lot Sharlene."
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